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Transcript: 20260622-History Is Inquiry - Ancient Martial Arts w⧸Tom Billinge -Gods, Wolves & War @WarYoga
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>> Well, Tom also we [music] I just told you a little bit about our project with this nothing directly related with martial arts or at the beginning or anything like that. After with the project we have started to to see that with the Stones and Serpents documentary that I told you we are recording I mean we are currently still filming. We started 1 year ago. We did this touring in in Greece
And Malta Island first then Greece and South Spain [music] following the tracks of especially more in the religious side on the oracles. And pharma pharmacaea and all that kind of thing because we work with a philologist which his
Expertise or the what he was like specialized in is in the medical stuff. Okay. >> So, from that point we started to engage with them in a series we did, which is called the History Singquary, this one that we're recording now with you. With the idea of introducing a bit more to to an interested audience on it from [snorts] the perspective of a philologist, which is like quite cool cuz it goes straight to the source and to the text and and all of that. >> Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> And obviously during the whole episodes, we're actually we have like 15 hours talking with him for the documentary and then we did the other series to publish. And we we already did is four episodes like 1 hour and a half or 2 hours each. And it became quite
A big topic the whole idea of how they were actually engaging with the educational system. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> You know, which a big part of that was of course the physical training and absolutely related also with a religious practice and and and music engagement and dance as a whole. A grammatia, yes, obviously. So, that caught our attention right away. And after we started we started recording also with another philologist and linguist from Athens and we recently actually published one one interview with her.
And Ammon, which is the other philologist in the US. And and we engage a bit with with the with the idea of the paideia, of course. And as my brother is the the director of the film and and he practice I don't know, both of us we are three brothers. All of us we're been doing martial arts since we were kids. I study music when I was out of school, so it be it became such a like an interesting an even a personal interest for us.
Because you know, because we you feel like very related and at the same time you can see how still some influences of this kind of educational ideas is still alive in nowadays, I guess. >> [snorts] >> So, so of course then is when I make the connection with you. We've been following you for like in your Instagram for for years now. My brother especially. He he trains uh where else? He trains Jiu-Jitsu and he wrestles, he competes at it. I've been training in Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling also here. I
Love it and and so we obviously decided to actually dive into this and we are um engaging with the idea of connecting it it's already connected. It's going to be on documentary, but we are not sure yet how. So, we we thought starting a good starting point would be to connect with somebody like you who is actually as an author also um like engaging with this part of it, I guess. >> Okay, cool. >> Tell me if I'm wrong. >> [laughter] >> No, no, I I mean I I I I hope I can be
Useful starting quite for something. >> Yeah, I'm absolutely sure cuz I was reading I didn't I didn't finish it, but I was reading one of your books like the the solar path of Greek heroes. >> Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> And >> That was my first That was my first book actually. >> Yeah, I know. So, that's where I thought it was a good starting point, I guess, because you have a lot of them. And um
So if you don't mind uh I was I will shut my mouth for a bit and >> [laughter] >> and see if I I mean, we will we we are very interested in the martial arts part of what you are doing. And but I would like to start talking about this other dimension as an author that you have and taking this the solar path of the Greek heroes, which is your first book. And what what led you into into this research? >> That's a good question.
Um so, I've always been interested in mythology. I'm half Greek. Um so, I I kind of grew up a bit with Greek mythology listening to those stories when I was um a youngster. Um I used to have like sort of kind of audio books like CDs when I was very young. Um and I would just listen to those stories over and over and over and they kind of stayed there in my in my conscious pretty much throughout my life. But um
I started training and doing all sorts of different things as I got older. Um and then the mythology, while it remained there, was kind of definitely somewhere in the background. It just sort of disappeared a bit and then um I moved to Asia when I was in my late 20s. Um I was already going there quite a lot to do um Muay Thai. I was I'm a Muay Thai instructor as well of more than 20 years I've been teaching Muay Thai. Um but I went to live in Asia and I was there for 6 years in total living in
Asia. And during that time, I'm the kind of person that immerses myself quite deeply in culture if I can. Um I like to learn. And my interests have always been historical, spiritual, religious, and physical culture kind of things all mixed together. That's always been something that just had an interest in. And it's something that um I never really kind of thought of it as something that I'd put out into the world, but it was just a personal kind of interest of mine to have those those
General fields um and how they kind of intersect with each other. And so I was in Asia. I was um in Thailand, China, Hong Kong, Vietnam. I lived in all those places and um I really loved learning about the spiritual traditions, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism.
Um and this is the general kind of local sort of Shintoist beliefs, if you will, which is the Chinese gods and um how that kind of connected into physical culture and martial arts was very interesting uh subject for me. But then when I left I had this feeling that we had something like that in the West, but that somehow it has
Been lost. Well, if not lost, at least kind of buried underneath so many layers of other things, of so much kind of like um modern materiality, if you will, you know, something that's just is it there's something and I just had this feeling there's something there underneath all the layers of detritus that that there is a similar, if not the same, a similar kind of tradition of physical culture, spiritual culture, and mythological culture all kind of intertwined into one thread, if you will. Um so when I came back to the West from Asia um
It took me a little while to get to America. I had to um I married an American lady and I took a process for me to get all my green card and so on and so forth. So that took up a lot of time. Um but once I was here, um, I because I was So, another quick point. I was I was actually working as a commercial writer for a while, too. So, um, I was working as a copywriter, doing all those kind of things, and then um,
COVID happened, and a lot of my work dried up. And so, I decided that I wanted to write for myself in that time. I just thought, "Well, I haven't got any work." That was actually only temporary, but it ended [clears throat] up being kind of a long-term thing in the end. But, um, I I ended up writing starting writing that book that you have, Undying Glory: The Solar Path of Greek Heroes. And what actually happened was was I was looking into the story of Heracles, um, Hercules in Latin. And I just had this concept
That there was a running thread of solidarity, if you want to put it that way. Like, it's kind of like solar theme that ran throughout that story. And so, originally, I was just putting together almost like a little pamphlet, like a I was just putting together my general thoughts on the original 12 labors of of Heracles, and and just just kind of my thoughts and feelings on it, and it just developed further, and it developed into that book, which obviously goes into the solar theme that runs throughout a lot of the Greek heroic mythology,
Including those early heroes like Cadmus and Bellerophon, Perseus, and so on, Theseus. And And those are what I consider to be the first generation of heroes. They're the pre-Trojan War heroes. The next generation of heroes are the ones that are in the Iliad and the Odyssey. Um And so, yeah, I just I ended up writing that. And And honestly, I I have to say, I mean, while I obviously did some research on the matter, it just kind of wrote itself. I know it's kind of an odd thing to kind
Of say, but I I mean, I almost feel like I didn't write it. I kind of feel like I almost channeled that from somewhere. It just it just kind of came out almost so sort of subconsciously. Um
So, yeah, that's how I came about writing that first book. And then I kind of developed some of the ideas from that book into the sort of the rest of the book series, cuz that's part of a three-book series. Um there's also the um Age of Heroes, which is uh about the um the next generation of heroes and the um kind of polar path, if you will, which kind of builds on the solar path. And um then um the final book in that series called Return
To Hyperborea, which is actually about the Orphic tradition. Um so, it's again initiatic um and it's sort of another dimension of that whole thing. Um So, yeah, it's it's it's been like a long day. >> Mhm. Yeah, I can see. And um So, I guess if when when you started with this idea, you went as back as you can, like um when you're talking about this um this this probably are ideas from late Bronze Age or around that time, isn't it? Like >> Yeah, I mean, I actually believe that these are much older. That it's actually
Pre-Greek. Uh yeah, it's it it's something that kind of comes from the earlier Indo-European tradition, has become recognized as they gained that identity of band they moved into. >> That's exactly where I'm trying to go to cuz it was a bit what happened to us in our in our research. Also, we started to understand that there is something that was happening before. That you can trace a bit in in text what the in the research we have been doing probably is in another specific topics, but obviously everything comes down to what they wrote about themselves. So,
You can like know a bit about what happened before. But when you say because also in in in the beginning of the book of this specific we are talking you make a reference also to the east. So so I guess it it connects with what you were just saying now about that you feel that it's coming from it has an older obviously obviously an older
Connection that seems to be coming from northeast east towards the Mediterranean. >> Right. I mean, I think it comes with the Indo-European people. Um and so I mean with a mix of of things which from other groups of people maybe, but the main thread I believe is Indo-European. Um so for those who aren't aware the Indo-European people
Have been associated with something called the Yamnaya culture, but it's kind of somewhat speculative in some regards of what they have been it's a definitely a language group and a group of people that spoke a common language that then became over time the languages of India, Sanskrit,
Iranian, so Indo-Iranian languages. Um um, and then became the European after the European languages, not the there's a Finno-Ugric group which is Hungarian, uh, Finland, etc. But, the majority of the European languages are Indo-European languages. So, the the reason that we can figure out that these are related is that so many of the words cross over within those languages, especially at the earliest level of of words, you know, the the sort of most simple and usable words kind of all tie in with each other and they're very
Similar. So, using language philology, well, um, they've basically managed to figure out that there is a group of people that's a common ancestor of northern Indians, Iranians, and Europeans, um, and possibly outside of that, too. Um, but those people, specifically the ones that came across, were the young men, the warriors, um, often, um, on raids or trying to, uh, go into new lands. And in the case of Europe, they actually arrived in Europe um,
Probably about the same time or just after there was some kind of devastating plague of some description that actually wiped out quite a lot of the uh, native population, particularly the men of the old Europeans, um, and then they mixed in with the old Europeans, um, and so we ended up with a kind of hybrid groups of people in these different places from that Indo-European group. But, I believe that a lot of the mythology that comes through since those Indo-Europeans essentially became the ruling class, the warrior class, which
Is the nobility and the right the royalty of a very, very, very ancient Europe, pre- you know, Bronze basic Bronze Age, Copper Age, um, that those myth- those myths are the ones that basically became the European myths, in this case the Greek myths, but they are from a much older time and that over time layers just kind of get added to them until they become what we are familiar with as the canonical myths. But, those myths are from a much older time, and that you know, for example,
The character of Heracles, he is certainly much older than the Greeks. That he was brought into what would become Greece by the tribes that would become the Greek tribes. That um he's basically part of almost every sort
Of variant Greek tribal mythology. Um apart from the Athenians, he's not Ionian, apparently. That's one of the interesting things, but he he's adopted by them later. Um but that that mythology is is much, much older. And the concepts that are in it are much, much older because they're also common they have a lot in common with the mythology of uh Avestan Iran, and our Vedic India. So, for example, the dragon slayer myth. You know, in Greek mythology, you have uh Zeus is a dragon slayer, Apollo is a dragon slayer, and Heracles is a dragon slayer. They all
Have this concept of they destroy they they slay the dragon of chaos and put order over their cosmos. But, that's the same in the Vedas. There's Indra does the same with Vritra, the dragon there. And then uh Fereydun in the Iranian mythology does the same thing there, too. So, there's this similar there's like a you can see these almost identical threads that have just slightly changed to adapt to what would have become that culture and area, but they all come from the same source, ultimately. Um so, it's it's really
Interesting to me that there is something much, much deeper that has manifested into uh what we consider to be oh, this is a Greek myth, or this is Iranian myth, or this is Indian myth or what whatever but but ultimately those will derive from something much older. >> Mhm. Yes, we we have been encountering something like that. Also, when we follow even the the knowledge of medicine what we will call medicine now. Um that Have you heard about um the Pelasgians?
>> The Pelasgians, yeah. >> Yeah. So >> Neighbors. >> Yes. >> Neighbors. >> Yeah, and also connected with with this I mean tribes that were mobile and were moving around like horse tribes. Um that were moving all over and and you can see how let's say in this case that I'm I'm I'm telling you how there is some s- because the Greeks themselves were saying Greeks let's say Greeks but people that >> Yeah. >> that are Greek speaking in the Greek speaking world. They were talking about
This this Pelasgians. And you can see how also something very much alike appears in Italy with Etruscan ideas. So it became like and you can see how the this was spreading around the north and kind of dripping down to the to the Mediterranean. When you follow you are following the the rights let's say the codes and and the practices with with the plant knowledge or even concoctions, venoms, all all of this pharmacopoeia concept. >> Oh, for sure. I mean there's kind of interesting thread where um
Example in India they doshas the which are the sort of various forces earth and and air and water kind of heaviness, lightness, wetness, moistness. You know, these these concepts that there's three doshas in India, but apparently there used to be four and they tie almost identically
Into into the Greek concepts, you know, of the humors of Galen's humors. They're like so Indian medicine and ancient Greek-Roman medicine has so much in common. It's it's, you know, almost hard if you took away the exact terminology and just put in the concepts, it would be almost impossible to determine which one was which. >> Mhm. Exactly. So, that's why these horse tribes kind of caught, of course, our attention. Like as they were mobile, you cannot find temples because obviously you're not building temples if you're
Moving around. But you can follow the the cult kind of thing. You know what I mean? Like when you say the cult, let's say we're saying everything. Like what we will say, medicine or practices or however you want. >> I mean, that's basically what I'm trying to do with war yoga is I'm trying to look at that from the martial tradition. >> Okay. And >> Basically the exact same thing. >> Yes. >> That exact idea. Trying to put it all together and trace it. >> That's amazing then. That's fascinating.
Actually, that's that's what I was I would love to go. Like as as I was giving giving you this example of following, let's say, medicine or pharmacopoeia or drug knowledge. Um how how do we see that in in in the martial concept or what what it means, I guess. Like martial will mean comes from Mars. >> Yeah, the mar- yeah, the martial metaphysical tradition.
Um So, these mobile warriors were exactly that. They were warriors. They were their reason to exist life Uh and that so if we step for a second into the in India they have the actual caste system and then obviously there's different class systems that went through ancient Europe as well but ultimately you have priests warriors and craftsmen and those are the three top groups in all the cultures in Europe and India and Iran they have these concepts of the right at the top of priests and warriors.
And so at the earliest stage priests and warriors are kind of almost interchangeable that they're the same thing that the warriors so a king does the rights the king is a warrior the king in state rights the king is in charge of the sacrifice in charge of all these things he is tied in intrinsically into the concept of the land but you've got this idea of the warrior class having to go to and their entire function as we know from something like the Bhagavad Gita for example is to fight and that's that's their function
And that doing their function is exactly what they have to do and that's outside of morality in some regards that you know those things kind of get suspended but in order to fulfill that function they have to go through several exercises like sort of spiritual exercises psychological exercises which is where I believe a lot of I mean so separate modern yoga first of all from ancient yoga they're two completely different things modern yoga is a 19th century construction and ancient yoga was very different but I believe that the ancient yogic
Practices ultimately come from the warrior class having to get themselves psychologically prepared in order to be able to commit violence and have violence committed to them that is something that is extremely difficult to do unless you have the preparation or to do it. >> Probably probably, probably related with initiation rights. >> Probably. >> Mhm. >> In fact, um the ancient concept is that you are not a member of your class or caste or whatever you want to call it until you've been initiated. Um that's where the idea of being twice born comes
From. So that a uh warrior is or priest or whatever, they're twice born. They are they're born once physically and then they're born again through the initiation and that only once they've had that second birth can they be considered a man and can they be considered a member of their uh group.
>> Am- amazing. So we can see the parallelism with the with the initiation or the mystery rights in in in in Christianity. >> is critical. >> Mhm. >> Um I see that actually through the Indo-European tradition is the the common thread is actually something that I um I've explored quite deeply is the idea of the wolf cult. So the wolf is the totemic animal of the warrior. There's actually three totemic animals, the wolf, the bear, and the boar in in European tradition, but the wolf specifically is very much tied in with the youth warrior band, the ephebe.
Um and obviously you've got things like the Roman Lupercalia where the youths have to do wolf rights. Um there's wolf rights in India with uh Vratyas. There's the Iranians have wolf rights. And so the wolf is the symbol of the warrior because it is swift. It is a daytime hunter. It actually hunts during the dawn and the dusk. It's what they call crepuscular. So it actually doesn't hunt at night. It hunts in light ti- light when the light's strongest, dawn and dusk. Um it is uh it works as a group.
It so it it functions because it works together as a group just like a band of warriors. Uh it's considered to be invisible or extremely swift. Um and that's where you get, for example, the Germanic berserker traditions, where they actually wear the wolf skin, you know, the Roman uh leaders of certain Roman units would wear the wolf pelt over their armor. So, this wolf cult, and there's actually a some evidence in Russia, it's called like Krasna Markoie, something like that. It might don't It's not exactly right, but it's
Krasna Markoie, where they were doing a dog \\{{}slash} wolf rite for the young men, the young warriors, which they would probably have to go and sacrifice a wolf, their own wolf, maybe that they raised, or dog, and then they would take on and the presumption of the reconstruction is that they would then take on that power and become the kind of wolf man. And that's where a lot of our werewolf myth comes from, the idea of the man-wolf, cuz werewolf just means man-wolf. There's a Greek mythology
About it, where uh for example, in uh Mount Lycaeon, where there's a very famous werewolf story, but ultimately there the men there would um go to the sanctuary of Zeus Lycaeus, which means wolfish Zeus. They would um do a rite in secret in this forbidden area, and some of them would have to become a wolf and go off into nature for a while, uh and then return after a few years as men and become men again. And so, they had become the werewolf, the wolf man, the man who can be a wolf, but also be a member of society, because
Those two things, you know, being out in the wild and being a savage and being in society, they don't necessarily um uh live together well, and so, you have to somehow balance those two things, and that some people could never come back to society. But, that ultimately is this idea of the wolf initiation, that the young men at a certain age, and you can see it in the Spartan uh Rogae, you can see it in the Athenian Ephebia,
They would to go out into the wild essentially as wolves, as young wolves, live on the edge of society, fight against enemies that they meet, survive for themselves with just like a knife and a spear and not much else in small groups. And then after they've done that for a couple of years, that's their part of their initiation finished and then they can come back into society and become men. And so this wolf theme I've just found it everywhere. >> I see in the European diaspora.
>> And and probably also if one person will try to find references to pharmakeia being used on it, probably also you will find some. Like meaning that always in these initiation rights, as we are going in as we have been researching, you will find that you will use specific stuff or drink specific drinks or you know that you might see it now as okay they're using some drugs but yeah I mean it's the use of nature kind of thing. >> Like but I mean all drug usage was ritual.
>> Mhm. >> You know what I mean? It wasn't the same sort of recreational ideas of drugs that drugs had it. They used drugs for specific purpose. >> Exactly and always to try to um do something that will give something to the person. >> Like usually to kind of thin the veil, you know, to to make that barrier between worlds go thinner or disappear for that time so they can see into the another world, you know. Um it's definitely that. I mean the Eleusinian Mysteries with the kykeon uh
You know, they developed into what they became but they they come from the similar idea. I mean it's seeing the afterlife and seeing um what awaits you, you know, and that comes from the kykeon, which again is somewhat No one really knows exactly what it is, but it was basically a drink that had some hallucinogenic properties, especially after some days of fasting. They drink that and then do nocturnal rites within the Telesterion, which is completely closed off. Um So, yeah, absolutely. >> We're having We're having diving deep on on those
Uh on those mysteries, on those mystery rites. Yeah. I mean, but we we went to like um that's the Eleusinian mystery will be like the most um let's say modern one we we found after like but it comes is if you are tracing back the mysteries of course you can go like >> it's older. >> And [clears throat] and >> I mean, the mysteries of Samothrace here are very interesting, too. Um >> You're hitting You're hitting the spots about those You're hitting the spots like >> warriors about those things. So, that's
My That's my my work on that was was to Hyperborean. >> Oh, amazing. Well, we'll we'll definitely read them all. Cuz cuz cuz >> I don't try to plug my work, but that's exactly that's what I was doing with Hyperborean, the mysteries. >> I mean, I must say this is the first time we talk. And and you just hit like two of the specifics that we are actually we were physically recording on. So, like Eleusinian in Eleusis, Samothrace, you know, and yeah, I mean >> Samothrace is special.
I've I've been fair. >> You've been >> sitting at that site. And there's this There's a very famous There's a green stone, like the whole site's got a lot of green stone, but there's this green lodestone, basically magnetic stone, and it's huge, and it sits right at a certain point of the site, which is actually much older than all of the buildings around it, cuz the buildings are much later antiquity. The site's like infinitely more ancient. And this loadstone is uh directed towards
Um Draco, which was the polestar thousands of years ago. So it's like literally the site is aligned to something that used to be the pole of our solar system, but not for thousands of years. So it's it's like that site is something else. There's like a an energy there for want of a better word. There's something there, you know, like if you go and visit, you can't help but notice it. That's why you get people sitting around like they look like normal tourists, but you see they're
Almost compelled to sit and meditate or sit in quiet and and feel something. There's something about that place. >> Yeah, and then like could you be the I mean you when you were there, you were there for a couple of days for for >> Yes. >> Yeah? Yeah, I know what you mean. We all know what you mean. I mean we were there like for almost 2 weeks. >> Oh, wow. >> So and we were living in the north of the island in a forest in the middle of it.
The the connection we had there
Not for a couple of of days. We were like all over the I I I I >> There's there's ancient forces there. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, Tom. So,
Sorry. Keeping with the old line, which is difficult for me always. That's why I have >> Okay, no problem. I'm not very good at keeping that line [laughter] either.
>> So, um should we go Well, first, it's amazing that there's a lot of connection in your research with what what we were doing. Uh I just uh hit with with with this book, and now I understand for everything you are saying to us that this was a great idea to contact you. Um >> Good. Good. >> Um so, if we keep following this this uh martial ideas, um and we go a bit um into the future times taking it from from this uh origins that seems to be that there were some uh mobile
Tribes that connected and and uh different spots cuz >> Yes. >> you'll say India, and I guess um as you were taking the idea of East and West. >> Yeah. >> We can actually if you we see it in in a map, it will be on the middle of it. So, probably things started to happen to the West and also to the East. >> Yeah. >> And and have you as you have been living in the East um you are from the West and >> Yeah.
>> Have you been seeing these similarities like after you thought that this might be when you were saying to us that once you come back to the West after living in the East, and you will say that um you can find these same similarities even as far as going into the actual East, let's say Chinese culture and all of this Asia idea of the martial
Um concept. >> Yes. Um yeah, I basically found that uh the same thing didn't exist in Europe ultimately that exists in Asia. Um it's just >> And would >> covered in layers of >> Mhm. >> things. >> And would you say that they have a common origin?
>> So, some parts maybe uh and some parts no. I think
So, there's here's the interesting idea. So, both areas, of course, human beings fight each other, you know, that's it's human nature, right? Even if you're completely unconnected in any way, you'll find that like wrestling or hitting each other is common to humanity. We We've always liked to do that. Um and war, there of course is. Um But, this spiritual element to it, which
Of course is a very natural thing because um in traditional world, traditional world view across all sorts of cultures, um what happens on the material plane is a manifestation of what happens on the spiritual plane. You know, that um as above, so below as the hermetic tradition would say, you know, so that that things that that happen in materiality are just expressions of things happening at a sort of deeper level. So, the idea of having s- for want of a better word, spirituality and uh physicality of martial arts as one thing is a very natural concept.
But, there's certain things that are clearly connected. Um So, for example, um and especially especially to India being a sort of crux point actually, um, because that was a point of exchange between East and West. So,
Fighting in an earthen pit, um, doing so for competition, doing so without weapons, uh, and, uh, doing so for honor, and for honor for the gods, and, uh, in order to prove yourself the best, I the one that is essentially the substitute for the sacrifice cuz, uh, this concept of the, uh, martial arts as a sacrifice to the gods, and the victor being the substitute of the sacrificial victim, the one that's chosen, uh, by the gods. These are concepts that you find across from India all the way to Europe. Um, the Greeks
Have the most profound expression of that, uh, ultimately because it just was, I guess, very, very much within the nature of the culture that developed there, this idea of the agon, the, uh, struggle, um, which is, uh, something that remains today in Greece, agonistic society as they call it. Um, but there's certain concepts and certain threads that are found across the board. And so, what's very interesting as well is if you're looking at timelines, so, the oldest martial art, \\{{}quote} \\{{}unquote}, combat sport, complete combat sport, if you exclude wrestling,
And you exclude boxing, but like, in terms of a martial art where you actually have all striking, all grappling, uh, is ancient Greek pankration. It's predates pretty much everything else that exists across the world. And, especially cuz it's a complex full system which involves all elements of combat.
Now, that develops in Greece, and then, while Alexander the Great himself was not known to be a practitioner of the art, he brought his soldiers with him who were and everywhere he went he set up a gymnasium and a palestra, a wrestling school. So every single one of the cities that he set up has a palestra, has has that and they furthest one is deep into Greco-Bactria in a place called Ai-Khanoum on the edge of Afghanistan, what's modern Afghanistan and they have a palestra there from Alexander the Great's time,
From his successors actually I believe. That point right there intersects with India. And India had a martial tradition but there is plentiful evidence from what I've been putting together and from my work that those while they also come from a common ancient ancient origin, you know, these Indo-European people, they also cross-pollinate at certain points and that cross-pollination there where there's the exchange between the Macedonian Greeks and the Greeks generally and Indians becomes a sort of interesting little crux. Little kind of like hub of something. But what's really fascinating and of course this is all kind of pie in the
Sky if you know what I'm if in some regards cuz it's very difficult to prove any of this stuff. But the Chinese Kung Fu tradition of Shaolin for example is said to come from Bodhidharma and Bodhidharma is an Indian monk who comes across from India and he's actually while they say in some texts he's South Indian or he's Indian, the Chinese texts describe him as a blue-eyed barbarian and they use a phrase that means he could even be Iranian or northern Indian. It's difficult to kind of exactly pinpoint
From the Chinese language cuz they use this language for that entire area. But he's described being this blue-eyed barbarian that comes across from India and brings uh Buddhism, which becomes Chan or Zen Buddhism, but also the martial arts. And so, while that isn't evidence in itself, there's an interesting little kind of oral tradition and suggestion that something was brought over from that point. And Bodhidharma, of course, is from what the 6th century or something like that? May I I'm I'm maybe slightly off on that date, but it's
Like 8 or 900 years after Alexander was in that area. You know, so there's like there's interesting threads that certain thing >> Ah, okay. So, you said you said uh six about your AD.
>> Yeah, so yeah, Bodhidharma's in the ADs and um Alexander's there in the 300 and BC. >> Busy. >> Whatever BC. Yeah. There's like basically about 900 years. >> Mhm. >> Um >> Very interesting. >> It's just interesting. >> Mhm. And uh and and yeah, well, that the fact that the even if you are studying um well, in my case um
Because I was doing martial arts, but when I was a kid, more like um kickboxing, that kind of idea, and then I went into um to the traditional Shotokan school, which is Japanese. Um well, Okinawan in in in in its um genesis, I guess. But, yeah, I found this connection with China and then with India. Which is crazy. >> It's Well, it's very interesting. Cuz I mean, obviously, there must be some kind of martial tradition there already, but the fact that it could infect and and sort
Of have a conversation with something from somewhere else means the information from the west absolutely couldn't kind of made its way into >> Yeah. >> And and vice versa. >> Mhm. And he and he got different readings because obviously anyways
Is you can see the parallels. But at the same time you can see the differences. Like uh if you What was the word? Of the the Greeks had a palestra. How you call >> though. >> Palestra, wrestling school. That will be like a dojo, I guess. >> Correct. I mean, the palestra is very interesting because again, just like in Asian tradition um if you went to the palestra, the gymnasion,
Um that ultimately you Okay, you learned wrestling. You learned boxing and pankration, maybe, right? But you also learned philosophy. You also learned music. You learned art. You learned culture. You learned debate. You learned how to use this, your mouth, as well as how to use your head, how to use your brain. You know, and it's that um Plato talks about it, but he puts it in Socrates's
Words and makes Socrates say it, but ultimately the idea that um the athlete alone or the warrior is too much of a thug and the philosopher alone is a thinker and a weak man. Actually, what you really need is to have the combination of the both to make perfect citizen, a philosopher athlete, somebody who is both skilled in combat fighting arts and physicality and some at the same time skilled in culture, thought, and the arts. That one or the other alone is not good enough. You need both to be complete.
And so, that's something you see as well in a lot of traditional Asian martial arts, this idea of the year yin and yang, you know, that you you can't just be a fighter because that's insufficient. You have to be a thinker. You have to be cultured. You have to understand certain cultural elements, otherwise you're never going to be complete.
>> That's amazing. And actually yesterday I was in a conversation because there was exams in the dojo. So well, you know, like in this kind of Japanese idea you will have the Well, actually it's very common in through martial arts that you get your degrees and your belts and everything. So it was a bunch of people doing it. And and after we went to the for dinner. So we were talking with the with the person who is the chairman here in Chile, which is the person that will give you the grades.
I mean the the the belts, let's say. And and we were talking about the competition Well, in this case WKF in karate, the World Karate Federation, which is like sports, completely sports. >> Yeah. >> Which are amazing athletes. They move like freaking it's just amazing. I've seen some competition. >> Sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely. >> They're athletes, but they will train in the actual dojo. They will not train the the the same as a traditional one. You have the the very specific way of the things you are
Training and also you have a way of behavior on it. A way of, you know, which I mean things of it it's not the same, I'm absolutely sure, as in the old times. But you get a bit of everything that the martial art wants to give you, not just the competition part of it or not just the fighter part of it. And and that can be also very kind of tricky because at the same time it should work also as a fighting system, I guess. Right. But so so in modern times,
How difficult you see or what you've seen in in in the world like um how far away from the idea of the complete development of a person we are now? >> We've come far from it. I mean, it's something that I kind of hope in some ways I can help instill back into the West because we've lost that. Like if you look at So, I I I train Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and also train Muay Thai. And so, from Muay Thai there is a cultural background. There is a kind of idea of making sure that you fit in with the originally the five Buddhist precepts,
You know, don't you shouldn't kill, you shouldn't steal, you shouldn't lie, you know, these kind of moral and ethical concepts that go with traditional Muay Thai with with Muay Thai in general. But if you come to the West, those things don't necessarily get transmitted along with the fighting side. And then you look at modern Jiu-Jitsu Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and then in America what's sort of just generally kind of become Jiu-Jitsu they call it these days which is just a kind of modern style of no-gi Jiu-Jitsu particularly and you
Know, that's the style I predominantly train these days myself. Um that has almost no code of conduct. It has almost no culture deeper culture that goes with it. The culture that has developed in Jiu-Jitsu is kind of asinine. It's irreverent which can be fun, you know, don't get me wrong. Going into a like so I I'm from a 10th Planet gym is my main is my gym and 10th Planet is very chill. It's very relaxed. It's like that's the style of the gym and it's it's nice, you know,
You you haven't got some of structures sometimes, but at the same time there's something kind of missing from a gym that doesn't have something deeper to it, you know? Um it's one of the reasons why I like teaching the kids classes, for example, for Muay Thai, because I'm able to teach that younger generation something more than just here's how you fight. I try to at the same time as doing that instill some sort of moral ideas or concepts, things that they can think about. I don't try and kind of push
My opinions on them particularly, but I try and give them something good that they can take into life with the martial arts, because martial arts aren't just about fighting. Martial arts are about how you approach life. It's about your morality and psychology. Um it's about how you can walk through the world and be able to live a good life. I think that's the real power of martial arts, more than the fighting side of things. It's the the kind of inner power, you know, Chinese martial arts and Chinese
Ideas kind of, you know, inner alchemy and um you know, neidan, as they call it, you know, like these ideas that you've there's a transformation happens inside as well as on the outside. Um it is something that's missing, especially in the West, especially in modern martial arts. Like tell me what is the philosophy of MMA? Tell me what is the philosophy of modern jujitsu? Like I don't think anybody can, because I don't think there is. You know, but tell me um some of the philosophies from traditional Asian
Martial arts. If you're somebody who practices those, you can tell me some philosophical ideas. You can tell me about Taoism or Buddhism or some of the kind of concepts that go along with it, but you can't tell me that's about modern MMA, which is the kind of fundamental defining Western martial art at this point in time. There's no morality. It's just here's how to fight, here's how to beat someone in a fight, and that's that. Which fine, that is what it is in itself, but I feel like
If you're going into it to try and pick up something of a martial art in a complete way, you will find it certainly lacking in uh the other side of that equation, the spirituality and and philosophical morality.
>> Yes, definitely. And at the same time, I guess it's not easy to find that way. Like cuz obviously you cannot replicate what you will abs- like completely >> No. >> used to happen, you know. Cuz >> No, you have to it has to it has to kind of grow organically, too, you know. >> And it's just not happened. >> Mhm. Okay. Yeah. >> Because it's rootless. >> Yes. >> The thing about these traditional martial arts is they're rooted. Whereas MMA is not rooted. It's a mix of all things.
>> Ah, okay. Okay. Okay, I get what you were going. Yes. Yes, and and also it was a part of the educational system since very very early age, I guess also. Like these ideas were like as you were saying in the Greek side they were being educated in the whole dimensions >> Right. >> for person in the >> Right. >> dojo that they >> the idea of the Spartan Agoge. So, up until the age of seven, the boy cuz it's if we're talking about it's about men here in terms of the warriors. So, traditionally it was males, okay? So,
Women were raised by women, and boys were raised by women until they were about 7 years old. From the age of 7 years old, they exit the world of women and enter the world of men. That means boys are then raised by men, and that's something that isn't true today in society. Like, you know, obviously men have a role, but like the role of the men of men raising boys has been incredibly diminished. I mean, the school system is um predominantly female
In the United States and in Europe. Um it's mostly female teachers, which is fine, it is what it is, but it isn't the men raising those boys. And so, what would happen is at the age of seven, the boy is going to the world of men. From that age until they're about 17, they are educated about how to be men in society. Yeah, that involves the physicality, the philosophy, the spirituality, these things we're talking about about the gymnasium.
After 17, or at 17, they go through their trial, which is like I was saying with the wolf cult, for example. They have to go off into nature, or they have to go and go through something very hard that changes them. It tests all the things they've learned. They have to put it into practice. They have to survive and live outside of society and actually make that work for themselves. And then, after a couple of years there, they come back into society, and their initiation is completed, and then they become
Members of society. Like, this is the ancient system. And that's something that is absolutely nonexistent at this point. We don't have initiations for either men or women, cuz women also had initiations. As in like at Brauron in Greece, Brauron, Vravrona, it's called near Athens, which was where the girls were initiated into the cult of Artemis, you know? So, there are male and female initiations in antiquity, but in the modern world, we don't have those initiations. So, we don't have that education in how to be an adult member of society, and a complete adult member of society.
>> Mhm. Yes. Um that was part of um a conversation we had also last time um about the the role of of men and women. Cuz as we were going tracing um the oracles, obviously obviously you you you will encounter yourself with the world of women, which you you you don't talk too much and people don't know too much. Like let's say the oracles were being trained since zero years.
And they were being trained in well, physics stuff like they were completely fit. As they were being trained in the use of different um pharmacopoeias, and because the oracles were were is is just women. And they were very educated, and also nobody will um challenge anything that the oracle will say ultimately. So >> Well, I mean cuz uh cuz female is the is the channel of the gods. The channel of nature. Like that that the role of uh that Basically, an oracle has to be a woman because a woman is the only person
Who can channel the gods in that way. Like uh in traditional society. And obviously, even even now, I mean women are more in tune with nature. They're more in tune with certain things, you know? The idea that we have of women's intuition, right? Where they say, "Oh, it's women's intuition." It's because there is an intuitive element within women that is not the same as the one that's inside men. You know, that we don't we Maybe men are a little bit more blind to certain things, you know?
>> Yes. And why do I bring this up? Because um I think it's very important when we try to have a a picture of like ancient times and when we talk about education focuses, let's say, as we talk about this part of of the martial way. Um I think it's important to understand that their society also had uh their understanding of the feminine side in this other kind of uh way which it was actually last word.
Will be the oracle, not even the king. >> In terms of In terms of the spiritual world, yeah, I mean, like so um there's the concept in Indian tradition of Shiva and Shakti. That and inside the man is this female energy, the Shakti is this power, is this immense boundless power that is female. It's uh personified by a goddess. And then if you look again into the Greek side of things, who is the patron of warriors? It's not Ares, Ares is the god of war. Athena is the god of warriors, goddess
Of warriors. She's fit, she's feminine. It's a feminine power, do you know? That is the And that gets manifested later into the idea of chivalry, that these knights of medieval times dedicated it to uh a woman.
You know, that that that And that's because that kind of power is traditionally always seen as being a feminine power. Or personified by a female force. >> And if you see, let's say, the other side and you see Apollo, which will be a musician and uh very beautiful musician, which will not be obviously as all gods of ancient Greece, uh very fit-looking, but as you were saying, um Athena will be the the warrior um >> Yeah. >> energy and justice. >> Yeah, she is. She's she's the she's the actually the complete warrior because like we said that Ares, Aries, he's um,
Just this force of war, like this force of violence, but there's no um, depth to it beyond that. Whereas Athena is strategy, cleverness, um, cunning. Um, that's why if you look at something like the Odyssey, yeah, Odysseus is she's by Odysseus's side cuz Odysseus personifies those same ideas of cleverness, you know, of of trickery, of having to be smart, of not just being a blunt force trauma, that you have to be, you know, smart about things and have more than one dimension to you as a warrior,
That you have to be multi-dimensional. And so that is Athena, really. Ultimately, she's she I mean, she's born from Zeus's head, you know, she's from the brain she's from the mind of the father of gods and men, as he's called in ancient ancient times, you know, he So she's she's a very potent force and she is specifically
Associated only with men, pretty much, and only with war and mostly with warriors. Craftsmen, too, to some degree because they use cleverness as well, but she is a warrior goddess for the men.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah, it's absolutely cuz um, this is you can um, infer like a very um, um, accurate I mean, and not obvious uh, right away idea of creating these archetypes or or or, you know, is like um, if you dive into it, you will find these subtle subtleties that you were just saying, which obviously is part of >> well, this is complex. People like to try and things. Like humanity is complex, right? And so all things have a level of complexity. And they had an incredibly sophisticated and developed
Um spirituality, philosophy, and culture. Um that that really we feel like at this point in time being modern people, being moderns, is that oh we we figured it all out and that you know we've come out of this sort of primitive uh nature into these amazing developed people that we are today. But ultimately, I mean, I think in many ways we've devolved, you know, we've we've lost uh a lot of complexity and and and powerful ideas. And we've lost them to something more simplistic and more black
And white, you know, that that there's something actually more profound and deep in antiquity. And some things aren't, you know, I mean, of course. Different the way it works. But like we've we've actually lost a lot rather than we've gained, but we've lost. And we've lost actually some things that are very important. You know, for all our technological advances, we've we've lost some of our humanity. >> Mhm. And the on and the idea of our self-development in in a in in an integral integral way or more
When yes, you you said a word just been appearing which is like this idea of the materialism as not as a philosophical idea, more like um everything of which is not of the intellect it becomes absolutely detached from you or becomes
Um um something that is not part of your everyday chemistry, let's say. >> Yeah. Right. >> Then it can be in the somewhere, you know, an idea that a religious idea even, but will that will not be part of your chemistry every day, you know? It just can be part just in your in your intellect. >> Well, it's interesting, right? Because we have like these ideas and these ideas of like levels, you know, that there's a material plane, spiritual plane, and like that's actually reflected in, for example, in Buddhism with the sort of the different bodies, you know, of the
Buddha, the three the three different bodies, the kayas, you know, the spiritual body, the physical body, that uh and then the ultimate body. You know, these ideas like this. I mean, those are reflections of what were considered the same way in in Europe and in and, you know, in in traditional society in general, that, you know, there's these different planes and that we're also kind of all functioning on all of them in different ways at different times and that ultimately what's happened is is we've given so much
Weight to materiality and the material world that we've kind of obscured these sort of higher elements, these higher versions of these things. So, you know, we're now it even just the way we kind of value things. I mean, look right now. I mean, how does how what is a human value now? Human value is measured mostly in terms of economics. That's a terrible measure of value. Ultimately, it's one specific measure, but it's like, why is that one chosen, you know? Like, why are there not other
Ways to value a human being and a human life? But that that's not we we live in an age which in ancient times in the Indian tradition is the Kali Yuga or in uh in Greek times, the Dark Age, which is this hyper-materialistic
Age where order has become um disheveled
And out of place, how respect and uh the understanding of how the world works and the connection between the spiritual, the divine, and uh the earthly have become completely disconnected and it's it's kind of like what's interesting is is those concepts were there in antiquity that we're going we're going to be going through that and here we are. You know, we have we've become very disconnected from higher ideas. We've become very disconnected from the spiritual plane. We've become very much rooted in this hyper materialistic modern world where
You know, like I said economic value is the absolute measure of everything which is just and I honestly think pretty awful way of looking at the world, you know, that that everything has an a price tag of some description and and I think that's just so crass and and low compared to you know, the way that those things would have been looked at in in a different time.
>> Yes. Yes, and and seems like this this disconnection uh as you study um ancient times um well, it it looks very evident. And I guess that's why they called the which it last for a bit the Renaissance the Renaissance. Like um something happened in between that was disconnecting a lot of things that were growing before, let's say yeah, growing. Mhm. Isn't it? And also this idea of everything
Which you don't see is not there and it doesn't exist in this in right. It doesn't It doesn't interact with you. Which >> Right. >> I mean, you can you can see stuff happening with I mean I I had this great analogy of Ammon the other day. He told me um well, you cannot see arrows but you can see arrows
Effect. >> Yes. >> So, is that real or is not real? happening right here or it's not happening right here. So, >> Right. >> you can see that I mean, it's happening. You are feeling the the attraction or not. But, you are not seeing it. So, this will be like what they will call the invisible. And and and how they were trying to actually tap into it through initiations and >> Correct. Correct. I mean, again, even in Buddhism, the idea of the material and immaterial planes, you
Know, like that you have different levels of existence and that there are both material planes, immaterial planes, worlds of form, worlds of no form, you know, that these things are intangible. You can't grasp them and grab them, but you can feel them. You can experience things that you can't see. You can experience things that you can't take a hold of. You know, you can't grasp. >> Exactly. And and and he will interact with you in your real world. Yeah. So, so that's a very different view of saying, "Okay, once I'm dead,
I'm going to see." >> Yes. >> This is not just that. It's like where you are alive. I guess that's why they had this idea of of being born again. >> Correct. And and the idea that, you know, to someone who has transcended the material world. So, you know, some kind of holy man or something like that. Somebody who has had a realization and seen, they're considered to have gone beyond time and space to see all existence unfold before them, to see past, present, future all as one thing.
The, you know, the idea that eternity is now. This is eternity. This is immortality. This moment now, you know, to be fully in that moment is and to be really fully in that moment it open to all that is before you. Both material and material, that is eternity, you know? So, these ideas of time and space can kind of dissolve in traditional um
Concepts of of existence, you know, of being and becoming, you know, that that ultimately you can transcend these things and become what the Indians would have called the Chakravartin, the lord of the center of the wheel, you know, that you are see all of time and space from the center of the wheel, that you're no longer kind of just on the edge of the wheel going through time in this sort of cycle, that you're in the middle. You're kind of on the world axis and able to move throughout time and space as you
Will, you know, these you know, while these are kind of high concepts in some ways, you can as a regular human being sometimes feel those little touches of that, where you'll feel the hand of something which is not there, but there. Like you'll feel like that for a moment that time is sort of dissolved, there is no past and present and future, that there's just there is and that you know, that that certain things manifest as it's it's just like this kind of feeling, it's very difficult to kind of you know,
Conceptualize that in a kind of um intellectual way. >> Yeah. >> You know, it >> Yeah, and I and I guess like those are memories that you have, um let's say like everybody has like I remember that moment because in that moment was kind of different. Probably yeah, you tapped into you your a different way of perceiving what was going on. And I guess this was the whole thing, like the thing with time. That the what's what we will call like the pre-Socratic um philosophers
Were talking all the time about this um this relationship with time and going back and forward in time in a cave and and try to explain it and and in a very scientific manner like that probably
You will call it now uh well that religion and science and everything was interconnected obviously. >> Yeah, correct. >> And the whole point of the of the initiation was for you to go and see for yourself and then be able to function in in society knowing and having this So I think it's absolutely
I mean imagine we will have an an initiation like that like right now to everybody. >> Right. I mean it's the idea, right? You don't know until you can experience it for yourself. Like you can't take other people's words, but until you experience
It and see it, you can't understand it. And so for example with the Eleusinian Mysteries, right? So throughout antiquity almost nothing was revealed about the Mysteries. We have like almost nothing revealed and like people can say oh well that's the because of the fear of the goddess or whatever. And the injunction of that you will be destroyed if you you know you'll be punished for letting the Mysteries out of the bag basically. But also the truth of the matter is is if you've experienced something at that deeper
Level at that deeper psychological level how on earth do you put that into words? How on earth can you transmit that? Like that's something that has to be experienced. It has to be felt and understood in a way that goes beyond the sort of you know intellectual concepts of things that you can't say, "Well, this happens and then this happens and then this happens." because it was something that happened on a much deeper level to the initiate. They couldn't put it >> Yes, I know what you mean. And and and even if you get you will have a text
Like the Mithraic liturgy where they will give you step-by-step, you will say, "What [\\h__\\h] What the [\\h__\\h] is this, man? I mean, what the what?" And you will see, "What?" And you have to say, "What?" So, yeah, I mean, the I guess what you're if I'm understanding is like the mystery itself will keep as a mystery without even you trying. >> Right, because the mystery remains a mystery apart from to those who've experienced it and understood it through direct experience. >> Mhm. Yeah, amazing, man. And now, would you mind if I change the subject and give you just one straight
Question for >> Sure. Ask away. >> [laughter] >> Would you allow that I I don't want to take too much time out of your time. >> you know, that's like >> But but this has been like amazing conversation. So, way better than the old one. And but I have this which is very important for the actual conversation, which is like very straightforward. What is pankration?
>> Ah, pankration. >> Pankration, I'm sorry. >> Pankration. Yeah, it's the So, sometimes people call it pankration, um but the correct pronunciation is either pankration or pagratio. Um so, pankration is The name means all
Mastery. Uh sometimes it's translated as all powers, but that's slightly wrong. I mean, it's not wrong, but it's like they're taking kratos there to mean power, whereas the actual root word there means the mastery of something. So, pan is everything and kratos Krateon, part means mastery of it. So, it essentially is an ancient Greek combat sport, which derives from the battlefield, but is not necessarily used on the battlefield, even though some ancient writers tried to insinuate that it does, but it wouldn't necessarily work on the battlefield, cuz melee warfare is very
Different from single combat. But, ultimately, it derives from single combat, monomakhia. Um and it is a empty-handed, all-in fighting style that allows for basically all striking, knees, elbows, punches, different hand strikes, palm strikes, finger strikes, thumb strikes even there's evidence of. Um There are an all grappling, like chokes, joint locks, cranks,
Any kind of joint manipulation. Um Maybe some small joint manipulation was not allowed under certain rule sets, like fingers, for example, um because there's specific prohibitions in writing about that, but that didn't stop some people. There's famous guy called Sostratos, who was a finger bender.
Um But, so they um Essentially, it's very similar in many regards to modern MMA, except it is um somewhat less restrictive. Um But, it did have a rule set, including, you know, there was often the There seems like groin strikes were not permitted, and gouging, and biting, and those sorts of things that would be not permitted in modern combat sports were not permitted. It was a sport. I mean, it There's only in the entire history of ancient Greek combat sports, um through the ancient game circuits, there are, I believe,
Eight recorded deaths of athletes and only two of those were pancratiasts. So, I mean, in a thousand-year period, only two recorded deaths. There may have been more, but there's two at actually at any of the significant games. So, it must have had a fairly rigorous rule set because they're not there to kill each other. Even though some modern scholars will be like, "It was a fight to the death." You get these kind of hopeless myths, which are just not true. I mean, just then it's not possible for them to be true. Otherwise, you'd have a lot of recorded deaths and and no one would
Redo the sport. Um so, it was a sport that was performed um and you would win when one person gave up and they would either give up by tapping or by raising their finger in the air to the referee, to the rabdouchi, the the rod bearer, rod to beat them with, um and he would uh they'd indicate to the judge basically that they give up and that's how you'd win the fight. And so, that is a sport that you can trace to at least 700 BC. At least. Um
Earlier. Like, much m- It's It's likely very highly likely as much earlier. Um and it developed and it was in use until uh at least the 4th century AD, so 300 something AD, and it probably
Died out at the same time as the games died out because it was intrinsically linked to games. And the games died out because of two Christian emperors, Theodosius the First, who banned the worship of pagan idols and pagan rites, which meant that was the end of the games themselves because the games were all sacred games to gods. And then his grandson Theodosius II who
Ordered the destruction of the temples. And so at that point ultimately that was the end of that sport. >> And um yeah, I was going to ask you because if as we were tracing the the mystery rights also at the same at the same point it it was actually also forbidden.
Yeah, in the same 400s AD. >> And what's very interesting right there actually is aside is that one of the greatest sources for Eleusinian mysteries is Clement of Alexandria. And Clement of Alexandria was a Christian bishop. But he before he was a Christian he was a pagan cuz he was a convert and he actually experienced the mysteries. He he was an initiate of the mysteries but even so, even when writing about it, there's something that stopped him short of really revealing too much. There's still something there in his psyche
That's like he's still a little afraid to say really what's going on there. Kind of interesting that even cuz it's again one of those things that the early Christian fathers are more pagan than modern pagans are for example. But they're more they still have that pagan what's the best pagan traditional ancient religion still there is very much part of them even though they've converted to Christianity. You know, they still they're still they're still something there's still something that that stops him saying this is what happens.
Like there's still a fear. There's still something that just holds him back. Kind of interesting. >> Yeah, absolutely. And and and and and again how everything is connected in in in their culture. Like I mean, as I was telling you, we were going into a different topic, but now we are talking about this other topic, which is was a big big part of the whole culture. As you can see how everything is part of the one whole one culture. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and >> twice.
>> And nowadays, cuz let's say here, I not that I know, I here we have you can train if you want like Greco-Roman wrestling, of course. We have that here. My brother actually likes to train that also. And and but what about the pankration? Because here you will not find anything like that. Do you think there's still >> find traditional pankration almost anywhere because it it's something that is basically lost, but being it gets reconstructed by certain people. So, one of my efforts has been trying to reconstruct it.
There are others in Italy there's actually several reconstruction groups that are right in some ways and wrong in other ways, in my opinion. But I'm sure they would say the same about me. And then in Greece there's a couple of people who are really very very good who I've trained with. But in Greece they have what's called Bagration Athlima or Athlima Pankration, which is the modern neo-pankration
That they have, which is just really a modern construction from karate and judo, ultimately. They've just made their own They've made a martial art and called it pankration. And you know, not to try and ruffle feathers, but you know, there's a lot of incentive for you to have a pankration school because you get government funding, whereas you don't get government funding for your karate school or your MMA actually MMA just got recognized by the Greek government, so there might be some funding now for that, but Um, it was one
Of those things where in the 70s, and 80s, and 90s when they were kind of creating that, um, there may have been other incentives to do so, and they, um, you know, sticking like ancient names on things that have no basis in historical,
Uh, evidence, um, is part and parcel of that to some degree. So, you can find quite easily new pankration, neo-pankration, athlima inner athletic pankration, which is the new style, but you will struggle
Endlessly to try and find the original pankration because it doesn't really exist. Um, I try to do my part to do my research and reconstruction, which involves understanding the text, understanding artwork, having a good basis in some sort of training of understanding how to read archaeological evidence, how to read textual evidence, um, and then at the same time also having a background in combat sports, which is, uh, something that's very rare to have all those those those those two sides of that equation because, uh, archaeologists and academics often
Don't have the physical side, and people who are martial artists don't necessarily have the, uh, academic side. Um, so, there's very few people who actually are able to bridge that. >> Well, I understand, but when you say try to reconstruct it, I guess you will be always through evidence, through text, I guess. >> Yeah. Text text beats artwork.
Um, but ultimately you try to take the fragments of text that remain, and there's a few, um, and then you try to understand that, try and visualize that, try and marry that to artwork from ancient artwork if if it's available.
If you can put those two things together, then it becomes a very powerful tool to understand. Um and then you then put that into a physical tested practice to see if that theory basically of yours holds water, if it would work, if it's something that you could actually do. >> Yeah, but I I can see I can see it happening. I mean, I've you I've seen the material you do and in your Instagram which you you always show a a picture an evidence or something and and you do
The actual Yeah, which makes sense when you have a a bit of a background, you understand that okay, the lock is going that way. I mean, for you it will be so easy to understand that is is is towards the joint of the shoulder or something like that, you know. >> Yeah. >> And and but another thing that I just comes to my mind is that I've been understanding that amount of Greek text we have now is such a vast amount of text that is not been translated yet. I mean, the philologists are actively translating
Every day. The one that I'm working with. So probably if if if you go and and and actually try to find this kind of with specific words to find text I'm sure probably some a lot more can be found. Maybe I I don't I'm not sure about >> No, absolutely. So so we have stuff that's in existence, yes, and then also like some of the papyri, you know, from from Egypt, the Oxyrhynchus papyrus that basically is a whole cache of like
Papyrus texts and fragments that were found in the desert in the early 20th century. And like, they're still working through that, I think. I mean, there's thousands and thousands of them in little tiny fragments. That's where we have, for example, an old part of an old wrestling manual was found, you know? And so, it it's again in sort of ancient >> language you have to interpret and so on. But, that was found. >> And that has been translated? Has been already translated? >> Yeah, that's been translated. It's very
Short. It's just like a small passage. But, like, you know, it was part of something bigger. >> Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, they were Greeks were writing everything. >> Yeah. >> And all of the wrestlers probably knew how to write and sing and dance. >> And I mean, a lot of the So, in terms of the pankration and boxing and wrestling, a lot of the evidence you get is from other texts, things like philosophy. Because, for example, Plato, as an example, uses a lot of metaphor from the palestra, from the wrestling school.
Because he assumes that people who would be reading or listening to his work would understand that. Because they are men who have gone through that training system. So, it's easy to use a metaphor from wrestling because oh, that's more understandable than me trying to do some other high concept. I'll use a wrestling thing. And it's For example, one of the great sources is a guy called Philo of Alexandria. Now, Philo was a Hellenized Jew. He was trying to put across Jewish concepts in Greek
For Greek-speaking Jewish audience. But, what he did was is he wrote his metaphors, a lot of them are about pankration, about wrestling, and they're about like the struggles, spiritual struggles, or things like this. But he uses these things and and because of that, we've preserved some very interesting techniques and other information all from his texts, you know, which have survived in quite astonishing volume, actually. So, you have to actually look quite far and wide. It's like if you're just looking for sporting texts, there's not much.
There's like >> Oh, I know I know what you mean. >> and that's kind of really about it. A bit of bits of it in Galen, um, but you have to look further. And you'll find it. >> Yeah, in the medical side, probably also. Yeah, I mean, if you can see that they were they were um I know dislocating
Uh joints. So, you you have that the data, you know, and probably >> We get a lot from Galen, from Galenus, um, because he um he he like a lot of ancient medics prescribed exercise as part of the um hygiene. You know, he had hygiene and therapy, and therapy is the curative, and hygiene is what you do to keep your health. And so, part of the the regimen of hygiene is to exercise. And so, a lot of stuff is preserved in the medical texts of Galen, in in his
Book Hygiene, where he talks he has a whole chapter based on on exercise. You know, which is fascinating because he essentially preserves exercises done by athletes, like boxers and wrestlers, in order to be strong and stay healthy for their sport, but he adapts them or talks about them in terms of the regimen uh of what people should do for their maintaining their health, which was what was called hygiene, the maintenance of health. >> Yeah, and and well, you mentioned Galen, which has been a big one for us.
Um, as he was writing in Greek and uh and and and are are you familiar with Galen's theriac?
>> Um, it rings a bell. >> Theriac. Is I will send you I will send you something that I I have here. But it's yeah, it's it's it was a regimen that it was a concoction like some specific >> it was a medicine he made. >> It was a medicine Marcus Aurelius was was on it. >> Yes. Yes. >> And and and yeah. So, what I'm trying to say is that um they were very integral in the whole uh health department, let's say. Because he was Galen was taking from the ancient Greeks
The a lot of the knowledge he had. >> Oh, 100%. >> Yeah. So, that connects completely with this whole conversation about um the pankration and palestra and you know. And right now is is are you actively um like
Um making classes or something like that or your research on pankration or something? >> I'm so I'm researching. It's um hard to make a class cuz people aren't they're more interested in like doing a combat sport that is already complete and able to just use it, you know, like they want to do Muay Thai, they want to do jiu-jitsu. Um, but there are people I do workshops. So, I've done uh I just came back from Europe and I did some workshops in um in Italy and Greece um and Bulgaria um
Where I was talking >> We We're going now. When are you >> Ah, you just missed me. >> When are you going back to Europe? >> Ah, so definitely next year >> Mhm. >> because I'm currently researching the next Warrior Yoga book. Um, which is going to be about the um Roman's the wrong word. I should say Italic maybe tradition. Um, because I've
Done the first Warrior Yoga book about the Indic tradition, the second Warrior Yoga book about the Iranian Iranic tradition. And the third Warrior Yoga book was about the Greek Hellenic tradition. And so the next one's going to be the Italic tradition cuz I'm kind of working through the various different Indo-European subgroups, you
>> Makes sense. That's the next. >> Makes sense even like chronologically, I guess. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> Mhm. And uh well um so that's will be that will be what you are on now. >> Yeah, so I I'm now currently working on yeah, the Italian material. Um, which is exciting for me. Um you know, it it develops on very nicely from the Greek material. It has its own character. It has its own flavor, if you know what I mean, because obviously the Greeks were part of the later Roman kind of ideas and development, but uh there's also like a deep foundation
In the kind of Etruscan, you know, and other >> Yeah. >> Latin drama >> Like the Etruscan >> cultures there, you know. >> The Etruscan uh whole thing is amazing. >> Yeah, it's fascinating. >> Yeah, and if you go to the to the the cults and rites >> to when I visited my friend in Ladispoli in that Ladispoli, we went to uh Cerveteri, which is a Etruscan cemetery.
And we were actually uh the part that you don't it's not the ticketed part. It's another part of it and it's it was there just as the sun was setting and it was a really interesting experience because like okay, nature's a bit wild there too. You don't you there's like old wild boar living in some of the tombs and this kind of thing and you know, there's a little bit of a fear factor there but you felt this as the sun was setting we were walking
Through this like it's almost it's a path on either side just tombs built into the rock and it gets narrower and narrower and more forested. And you just felt this kind of like it was a sort of uneasiness, this weird sort of uneasiness settling in like something is watching you, you know what I mean? It's is or isn't doesn't matter it's the feeling you get and you're going into this dark and then turn around and went back out of the way towards the light and you just felt this like amazing kind
Of relief going out. But it's just like there's something there cuz the Etruscans had something a bit dark in there too. There's something dark. I don't know what I haven't explored it yet but there's something there's something there underneath the surface that is powerful
And dark not necessarily in the sense of being bad but being obscure and chthonic like of the >> Okay. Chthonic. Yeah, cuz it seems to be always this factor of horror in initiation rights also. >> Yeah, right. >> Like somehow this other
Side is is something that it can be very traumatic. >> Well, it's interesting like the gladiatorial tradition comes from the Oscans and the Tuscans the Etruscans, you know, into the Rome so it isn't native Roman. And the idea of the death fight, the sacrificial fight uh with weapons, whether it's to the death or not, just the fact it's a weapon fight with blood rights. Uh, which is obviously deeply religious, the blood bloodletting, you know, it's it's factored in with with funeral rights as well and stuff like that, but like
That comes from that deeper earthly tradition there. So, I'm really fascinated to dig into that because while gladiatorial stuff is actually not going to be my main focus, I'll definitely dip into it as part of the greater whole of what I'm going to be doing, you know, so. >> Yeah, the Etruscan connection for me was also like uh it with uh what I was telling you that this idea of what was going on in in the Aegean and what was happening in the Italic um peninsula
That um that had quite similarities very uh like pretty much the same, like phonic um five out of it and these um initiation rights and ancient and like the first mysteries um that were happening kind of in at something in in at the same time. So, when we say that it might be coming from a mobile knowledge in the north that was dripping down the to the Mediterranean >> again have a wolf thing like the wolves of the Hirpus Soracti or something like that. So, Mount Soractus is a volcano or a dormant
Volcano and it's definitely connected with Apollo, Apolo in Etruscan. There is a and and s- what's it called? Soractus Pater, the father father Soractus and it says there's some kind of darker version of Apollo that's linked to the wolf. And Apollo's linked to the wolf in in Greek, too. And there's there's there's Apollo like Chaos, which is the wolfish Apollo. Um but there is something there that's to do with initiation and caves
And the mountain and wolves and fire. So, there's something there, too. >> The hear pulse on them. Something like that. >> Yeah, caves and initiations. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That sounds very >> Because the cave is like you're going into the dark other to the underworld to retrieve something to bring it back to the light. Like there's there's that part of initiation. You go into the earth. You go into the underworld where the dead live. And you return from the dead, born again, bringing with you something. You
Know, it's there's there's there's It's very interesting. Yeah. Very interesting. >> And also like the the the work that you're doing as you are also very interested in this part of it as So, it makes a lot of sense. It makes like a whole. If you are trying to reconstruct
The physical practice. Yeah. Dude, I think you are I think you are one of uh like the less or not many people in the world is doing this kind of reconstruction of this >> Yeah, people are like there's not there's not many people doing what I do. I do something a bit different. I guess. But that's just because of my particular interests. >> Yeah, we we are a absolute fan of what you are doing, man. >> Thank you. >> So, we we we will share everything that you are doing when in in through this com
>> Yeah, I'm I'm really excited to see what you're doing, you know? Like I definitely am looking forward to seeing your Well, you're at your projects. >> Well, we're preparing another expedition and I'm not sure when, but we definitely want to dive into what you're doing. I mean >> Well, anything I can do to help, let me know. >> I mean, we're like actually to train. We are I mean, all of our in the inner circle of the team. I mean, let's say like the production
Director, co-director and all of that. All of all of us are martial artist for like since since we were kids. So, obviously now that we have this connection with our documentary, something we will go for it and makes so much sense now. And and and now that I had this conversation with you even more. >> Well, yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm so pleased to have had this conversation because I mean, like there's it's nice to connect with people who have like an understanding of what I'm saying, you
Know, cuz sometimes it it can seem a little bit like it goes over people's heads or you know, but it's definitely touching a nerve with people. People are starting to connect with >> Definitely. Tom, actually this it will be like people in the community that we share with, which is a community of of Ammon, which is making classes of ancient Greek free. You know, like for people and it's a lot of people learning with him and through Discord and through the even in YouTube like openly he's teaching ancient Greek.
And all of them would be so fascinated with what you're doing. Because I I haven't found anybody that is reconstructing through source because it's different if you are going to reconstruct something from translation or from from a diff from views modern views as you are saying like this is right and modern whatever. And and disregarding or not taking in in on board the idea of there is actually a real source that you can have. That's why they they wrote everything for for for us to read now.
So >> [music] >> so makes sense to go to the source. >> And that's why mythology is so powerful because mythology is more powerful in history in many regards because it preserves what is always true rather than what is true at that moment in time. So, mythology is a very powerful way of transmitting information down the generations
Uh and and sort of preserving something that will always be true no matter what. You know, and and what really represents the the real true belief of uh that group of people that is their eternal belief, you know, so history could be changed. History can be is written by one side, whereas mythology being an oral tradition doesn't actually change that much. That's kind of interesting thing, you know, that oral traditions actually preserve a lot more often than the written traditions. And um this um Sallust, the Roman writer, he he
Wrote about mythology. He said, "These things never happened, but they always are." And that is to me an extremely powerful line about mythology is is it describes it completely for me that it never happened, but it always is. You know, it it's it's never going to be uh what it talks about is always true whether or not it happened in in the historical >> or in the literally way. Or in the reality, I mean, it's it comes from something that is happening. That it will keep happening.
>> Exactly. >> Cuz it is there is some science on it. There is some tech. encoded there's sacred science, the ancient science, you know. >> Well Tom, we're so grateful that you wanted to have this >> It's an honor and a pleasure. Thank you so much Bruno. I mean it's [music] been It's been wonderful. I hope we talk again. >> Well, of course. I would love to.