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Transcript: 20260608-History Is Inquiry - The Inquiry Continues - With Dr. Ammon Hillman and Evina Vryoni
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Let's talk about war. You get a some kind of violent bic um ecstasy that takes things over.
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>> Yeah. Because it was an adjective to describe in that sense. [music]
>> And he's performing purggations with drugs. And these [music] healings affect the person's soul.
The oracles will not be like a just a crazy hippie [music] in a cave doing drugs.
[music]
They were newborns when [music] they were um adopted. I'll call it adopted by the oracles.
[music]
>> Everybody can experience this purggation. Is that what it means to be bic?
[music]
So, hello Aina. Um, so will you talk to us a bit about yourself like a just a personal intro kind of thing if that's okay? >> Yeah. Hi, thank you for for having me. Um, I am Mavenina. I studied classics and then linguistics um as my masters which can be a bit controversial because as you probably have guessed um there are two different worlds. They're all about language and the history but they have um like a different viewpoint. Um so philology is more about studying the history of language studying the literary texts of that time either in
Ancient Greek or in Latin. H but I would say that linguistics is more of a different perspective on languages. I understand it more as studying the language, the current language, the language that is spoken, analyzing the forms of of language from the smallest part of speech from like phonetics to something bigger, pragmatics or semantics. Um, so I feel like I embody both these worlds which at times are seen unfairly. I think are seen as contradictory
But they're not really in my opinion. So sometimes I have that part of me that is very um philology centered. So I look into the ethmology of words that fascinates me or reading ancient texts. But on the other side, I have a very practical and applied linguistic focus on my everyday life because I teach languages. So yeah, I try to balance both these worlds in my everyday life.
>> Okay. And um so uh did you study all of this in in Greece and and after you you was now we are here in Chile? I just I should say that that I I knew about you because of the collective the Palenistic Collective let's say. >> Yeah. >> And um so through them I was invited to your course but I I was I was not in in the city. So when I got here I I couldn't enroll in your course because it was already full which is like modern
Greek. So there seems to be this misconception that when you say Greek language um even for me before um you don't you tend to think that is the same as ancient Greek which obviously is not. Can you elaborate a bit on the difference? >> Yeah, of course. Um so I did study in in Greece in Athens which is the heart of uh classics really. Um so I did my undergrads there in classical studies and then I moved to to Edinburgh where I studied in the linguistic department. Uh
So that was where I did my applied linguistics um course and masters. Um and now I ended up in Chile. So I am not really in one place. I'm never stuck in one place. Um and since I arrived here I was pleasantly surprised to to find out that there is this um collectiva as it's called which is a community of Greeks or of people that love learning about Greece. So it's not only people with Greek origins and h they invited me to to do courses on modern Greek h which is as you said a bit different to to
Ancient Greek and there is not one way to say that but it's a bit contradictory. It is and it is not the same as ancient Greek. So in the same sentence I use this contradiction because it's interesting to to elaborate a bit on that. So thank you for giving me that opportunity to talk a bit more on that. Um so they they are one language. It's one language that has the same um linguistic ancestors let's say.
So talking about an in Greek we're not talking about one language. So it's an umbrella term to um to include all of the different dialects that they used in ancient Greece. So we have their like the Arctic dialect, the dialect of Athens, uh we have the Ionic dialect, the Aolic dialect and many more. So when we're talking about modern and ancient Greek, it's not even the contrast of two languages. is a contrast of the current modern version of Greek and on the other side we have like many different
Dialects. But the common thing among all of these dialects in ancient Greece and modern Greek is that they have the same ancestor which is the proto Greek. Proto means original first Greek and that is the connection of Greek with the Hindu European languages. So Greek along with all the Romans languages that come from Latin and many other languages that are spoken in Europe and in other continents are Hinduan languages. It's just a categorization of languages. Um, so the reason why Greek, modern Greek and ancient Greek are one language is because they have the same ancestors.
Now on a practical point, I would say that there are many differences. That's why it's very interesting um like observing modern Greeks, the students that go to school and we have like intense training in dancing Greek even nowadays they they feel like they're learning another language as if they were learning English, Spanish or anything else. So they treat ancient Greek as a foreign language just because they don't understand it. Um I will elaborate a bit more on the differences between the two of them but I'd like to say there that yeah I mean they've been a lot there's
Been a lot of effort from uh the ministry of education not only the current one all of them to maintain uh the same accent the same pronunciation of modern Greek into ancient Greek. So Greece is the only place in the world that nowadays ancient Greek is read
Not in the original way which is the arismic uh pronunciation but in the modern pronunciation. So I personally was taught to read Greek modern or ancient in the same way and this is not historically accurate. Having said that, now I can get into more technical differences. So starting with the phonetics or the phology um Greek was very musical had a phonetic
System um that as well as a polyonic system. So the stresses of the world that these two combined created a very musical effect. So there were even aspirated sounds that were creating a very um strong pronunciation. I don't know if if anyone has listened to ancient Greek being read nowadays. It's very strong in the pronunciation and musical. Um many of these elements are lost in modern Greek. Um, another thing that is very common is the diptos in ancient Greek that are read as different phonms, but in modern Greek
They're read as combinations of sounds. And then this makes a big difference for me for example um is not pa the word for education that uh we can elaborate on that later on. For me is pedia like pedagogy in English. So it's it's really different when I need to talk about ancient Greek in English with English speaking people because there I try to adjust to the pronunciation the original pronunciation that English speakers use and not the one that I have in my head let's say another thing that is um really
Different between ancient and modern Greek is the morphology ology. So there are um a lot of elements that are different nowadays. Ancient Greek used to be very dense. So if anyone never gets a chance to see an ancient Greek text printed next to a modern Greek text, the translation of the ancient Greek text, they're going to see there is a big mismatch. So whatever nian Greek roughly takes let's say five lines in a word document it might take 10 in the modern Greek version. It's because an Greek was very concentrated
Very dense um it allowed um a structure where the verb would go towards the end of the sentence which we see in Latin as well. Whereas in modern Greek, we've adapted to uh what most languages do, which is more of like subject, verb, and object, whatever we would use in English, like I eat an apple. But in ancient Greek, they would view it as I, apple, eat, which is very interesting. Um, none of these structures, neither from ancient Greek or from Latin, has survived nowadays. um people tend to talk more. Um so that's a difference in the way we see probably language and
Thinking, but I won't I won't get into that right now because it's more cognitive. Um and another thing that was different in ancient Greece was the semantics of the words of the words. So I would say that there are words that survived and mean the exact same thing as they meant in ancient Greece. For example, the word arete which means excellence, virtue. Um
But at the same time many other words that survived changed their meaning. So we have the word agora which was where they would gather to to speak publicly. It was the the place where political life would take uh place where people would exchange opinions where democracy
Started. But nowadays h agora for the like the average Greek person is the supermarket. So nothing like the agora offense in Greece. Um and also a third leg in that semantic problem is that we sometimes maintained some words from ancient Greece into combined words like hippodrome.
So that means the the rail for horses. That's what a hippodrome means practically. But we don't call hippo which was the word for horse. Um we don't use that word anymore in modern Greek. We use algo which is nothing like hippo. It doesn't have the same origins. Um so I would say that the the main thing that keeps these languages together is their origins. Um, it's quite hard. It's quite a challenge to go from modern Greek to ancient Greek or from ancient Greek to modern Greek. So that that is for anyone
That is wondering if I learn one of the two, how easy is it to get to the other one? Well, it is easy if you have a very high level in either of them, but not very easy if you know just the basics in either of them. Does does that cover your question?
>> Yes. And at the same time generates another one. >> Love it. Let's go for it. which if we take like a standpoint of using um or like engaging with um a ancient uh Greek like from a um like an exercise of reconstruct history um I guess it will be important to actually because the I've heard many times this idea of the music in the wordss or the the way you speak uh the way you do grammar
Um the way that you will read um was part of if let's say if we wanted to reconstruct history I guess it will be important to to kept that um as more as as the more accurate way that we can as how is being how it was being used in ancient times. Is isn't that a bit what phology from the that standpoint
Is related with reconstructing history?
Well, yeah. If I understand your question well is uh probably it surprise you that modern Greeks do not use a pronunciation of ancient Greek even though we are the closer um like genetically we're closer to ancient Greeks comparing to anyone else studying it. Um so if if that's the heart of your question then um it was I think an effort in modern times to make Greek people feel closer to ancient Greek because at times in the modern history in recent history in Greece um there's been an attempt to modernize
To to get away from our inheritance and look for innovative ative ways to reinvent ourselves. So if I'm getting it right, um depending on your question, you can jump in any moment and orientate me back to what you meant. Uh but I feel like it's yeah, from a philologist point of view, I like to be accurate with how things sound, how things are conjugated in a practical way, grammatically speaking. Uh, but more than all of that, I'm more interested in what was said, how it was like living in the ancient world, what
Were the morals, what was everyday life like. So, personally, and I know that's not the same for every philologist, it doesn't worry me that much the pronunciation, but I do appreciate it. I do appreciate the musicality in it and the history that ethmology brings. So
Maybe that's a controversial thing to say. So please correct me if >> it's perfect I guess. Yes. Uh and also I was going into into the idea of how these words that we can have now that that is still um survive [snorts] >> are actually uh source to understand history because you can have let's say archaeology but somehow it will give you you will have to guess a bit more I >> [laughter] >> if you are trying to understand what an artifact was used for or something like that. Um
But with words I if if that I guess what is impressive also is how you can actually create a system for you to understand what they were how they were using it and what they were because probably the words had a different meaning depending also
How it was being used I guess and in what context or whatever but the fact that we and correct me if I'm wrong. the fact that um the fi the phologies work will actually be accurate in how this um hypothetical word was being used at that time will give us as you were saying like the everyday life the the things how they were I don't know eating and potting or whatever you know So that's where I was going like uh the importance of actually understand
What a word means will give you more graphically and more accurate that even archaeology I guess but I guess also both of them sometimes catch with each other. Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Have a comment on that that was very beautifully said. So I don't have much to add to that but um something just occurred that I wanted to share. Um the reason why I feel is so beautiful studying the ancient things is because if we realize words are abstract sounds
That someone at some point decided to call the table table the water water right so if we come to the origin of the words and we think how ancient Greeks came up with words for concepts that they observed for the first time. That is the interesting thing. And then take it from there what they called arete the excellence the virtue that was a center the center of attention in education in ancient Greece. So how did they decide that that thing of being good and brave and courageous
Um was called arete
And not whatever else eis x. Okay. There is no no knowledge on why they decided these three syllables arete to to explain that concept. So I wanted to add that to what you're saying because it goes even before the idea of taking the words from the ancient Greeks and understanding and reconstructing their world is the idea that they came up with things and words and concepts that sometimes we're trying to understand where they got them from.
So they were kind of actively creating words. >> Yeah. And you know many many names even if you think of myths of gods of anything we know about Greek mythology many times is interesting to see how the names given to certain heroes or um protagonists of stories can be dissected ethmologically
And they mean what that person is. So for example, we might get into that later, but just an example that dawn on me is the word the the name Medusa, which which comes from a verb that in ancient Greek meant to protect
Because at some point she was a priestess in the temple of Athena of goddess Athena. So she was in a way a protector of worshiping Athena.
So did the my first got created and then we gave the name Medusa to her because of her identity or because of her name she became a protector of the temple. >> That's amazing cuz actually that's in the over in the overview at the uh at the end. So we'll get in into that for sure. Actually, it was part of a very long conversation I had with um with Ammon Human and the the Medusa as a guardian and um so that's great but that's I will try to keep on track Because if not I will >> I will go everywhere but we we'll go back to >> I could have used a different example.
[laughter]
>> No, it's perfect. So Aina as um as um also there there is this question that I have in this technicalities we're talking like um can you explain a bit like in a nutshell what is the difference between phology and linguistics?
Yeah, I touched upon that and I said that probably it's controversial to say that I embody both worlds, right? Um so
Philology is is more like studying
Um the language of a certain time and if it is classical philology then yeah of course we can we can talk about uh the ancient times but a philologist could be analyzing the the texts of a certain time of like the medieval time or of any time in history of whatever interest for that philologist. So it's mostly reconstructing what he said before the world around
The time of the text is occurring. So understanding why certain things are written in that way in this specific text, what it meant that word then and how it has changed today. So it's more the study around certain texts and what comes out of these texts. So we would know nothing about ancient Greece for example if there weren't classical philologists studying the texts understanding what it meant every single thing said there reconstructing the idea of how the society was uh what was right what was wrong how things worked how the city was governed
And on the other hand we wouldn't be able to appreciate all this knowledge on words and language without the linguistics. So in my view linguistics is very important because of course it focuses on the spoken word today but it's the language we use to explain and understand anything in our lives. So linguistics likes the idea of thinking and language being interconnected and without language we wouldn't be able to talk about things. So it's a different viewpoint but it's in in my opinion important to to have
Both viewpoints when you look at something. So, I love reading the ancient Greek texts and this is a big part of what I've done and what I'm interested in continuing doing. But I wouldn't be able to appreciate these texts without my inquiry on the words on how the pragmatics work back then, how one thing meant certain thing then and how it means a different thing today. So I feel like I I need to balance both these things when I have a certain in research interest let's say
That does that answer your question >> yes absolutely >> thank you so um if we keep going with the let's let's speak up because it will be interesting to go into like take a time time machine kind of thing >> as a phologist that you are >> and with the the both approach that you just said to us. So I guess it will be interesting to set us set ourselves in like um after bronze age then let's say
Homer times >> that that will be the eighth I guess. >> Yes. >> And and how this um well I guess who is Smer? Good question. Um, so, um,
Homer if, well, yeah, if he existed to start with, that says a lot about what I'm going to say later, but if he existed, you're right. He probably lived around the the second half of the 8th century and this would be um the archic times as they're called roughly from the 9th to the 6th century obviously before common era. Um so I'll I'll address the part if you existed a bit later uh because it has to do more with a homer question. Um, and I will explain uh
Later what that is. So, Homer, to start with the name because that's a good example I could have used before. Um, Homer, the name Homer, even in modern Greek, it means hostage. So, like taken as a as a prisoner or given as a guarantee um in a negotiation.
Um there are some folk and popular ethmologies where they take the word homer and they say that this first part roughly I will explain it roughly this in the beginning means the opposite the way we use anti- anti- something and this last bit this r
Especially in Homer h comes from the verb verb or which means to see. So according to that folkmology that meant that he was blind and that's why he had this name or this name was given to him because he was blind. As we said before there is this this uncertainty of is does the chicken do the the egg or the the hand the chicken. Yeah. This this confusion with ethmology. But we believe that this is fall ethmology. So that was what his name meant. Um probably
According to popular culture because he had the stick because he was blind and he needed to be guided. Whatever the truth is, Homer was a rapo. Um nothing to do with Bohemian Rapsidy. Yeah. Um because he lived way before that. But raps in in ancient Greece um
Were partly composers
Of poems and partly performers um like actors slashmusicians.
The word rapo it has in it the word o which means music. So the the wraps that wraps in the beginning means stitches. So what they were doing it was stitching up songs. So weaving together different
Parts of um extracts of already known poems. The question there is who composed those poems? That's another question and I'm going to try and answer a bit later on that. But the point is that Homer was a composer and um a performer
And they were very popular at that time. They were taking part in symposia which were big celebrations, feasts uh taking place in um the in in the houses of the aris aristocrats of the time and they were quite frequent. They were taking place maybe once a month uh because they were taking place during the monthly festivals and each of these festivals were dedicated to a different god from the 12 gods. So every once in a while, roughly every month, there would be this kind of symposia where raps were invited to perform uh for the audience gathered.
So that is what Homer was. Okay. Um so Homer composed again with a lot of stars. Did he exist? Did [snorts] he compose? We'll see later. But let's say he composed a lot of epic poems and lyric
Epic lyric poetry. But I'm going to focus today on Iliad and Odyssey which are the most fo famous poems from uh Homer. So this epic poetry means that is um very long poems, thousands of verses like the Iliad has I don't know 15,700 verses something like that. It's insanely long and it only talked about
An idealized past, a glorious past uh where heroic and like admirable actions took place. So Homer, as we said, he lived question mark, he lived h around the end of the 8th century, but he talked about the Troan war that took place in the 12th century, so four centuries before him.
And he talked about the the war in Troya during the Iliad, the first poem that was composed. And he didn't even talk for the 10 years of the war. He talked for the last few days of the war on the 10th and last year of the war. And then we have the story of Odisos in Odyssey. other thousands of verses there which is the 10y year long trip of Odis back home because he was the king of Eithaca which is a Greek island that still exists and has the same name. So he was the king of Ethaca and he wanted to come back from
Troy to his kingdom to his family in Eithaca. Um so that is the the main thing that Homer composed and what he's famous for. Uh well we can talk more about the morals in in these um poems when we talk about education maybe but for now you've seen that I've left a lot of hints and question marks. Um,
So the interesting thing there is the the idea that Homer
Existed or not. He did compose or not the poems. So he composed just one. So there was a the the father of philology um Friedri Wolf that in the 18th century um he composed um no he published let's say um some of these poems and in the intro of this book talked about the Homer question h that entry of the book was called brolle Ome
Means an introduction um to Homer in Latin there. So that question that um he posed was more of a doubt than a question because he didn't really ask us anything. He just doubted the fact that it's possible to have one single person composing two poems. the Iliad and the Odyssey that first of all they have some gaps in the narration.
Second they have different linguistic elements in them. So the Iliad according to philologists it comes first because it has some linguistics elements that are more archic more ancient than the language that is used in the Odyssey. So in the mind of Hul, how is it possible that the same person composes two poems and uses different language in each of them? So we have the gaps in the narration, we have the different linguistic elements and that was what made Wolf think that it is not possible that we have a unique
Composer for both of them. So he didn't believe in the sole author for both of these poems. He rather feels that Homer is part of a collective oral tradition. He's part of a chain of rap as I said before that was his job that probably decided to put these poems in this order. He decided to stitch up these extracts extracts of these already known probably poems in that specific
Order there. I have to say that um what I said about this specific order both of these poems start in media rest so in the middle of the things so they don't have a linear plot that's what I'm want to say um we don't see for example Odis
Leaving packing his things and leaving Troya to go to Ikaka no it starts like somewhere in the middle of his expedition, of his adventure to go back home. So probably it could be Homer that decided that that's how this story is going to be narrated in mediares in the middle of the things or at the same time we can think of the reality of rapo. So rap shows were invited in in big parties, right? So if the audience was bored or if the audience didn't like that specific part
Of the story, the rapod would speed up, would probably leave out certain parts of the plot and go to the parts of the texts that were known to the public. These stories were known to the public and the rapid would choose a part of the story that was more interesting that um provoked maybe more emotions to the audience um because it was interactive. It wasn't um like a performer on a stage with a predec.
No, it was interactive. So we have like in texts references where the rap would sit in a very beautiful chair. So he would stand out in a group of people but he wasn't seated at a high altitude where he can be seen by everyone. He was part of the group. Um so in that sense it was a very interactive um action. It wasn't just a performance that was predetermined. So coming back to Wolf to the father of philology that posed that question/ last doubt there were many reasons that made him
Think that probably Homer was not the unique composer of the poems but at the same time we are not sure if he even existed. So the question if he did compose them or not is not valid if we're not historically sure. We don't have evidence that he existed. So there the the thing is very complicated. Um but for me what matters that's a personal opinion is that e even if it is a single composer or if it is a collective chain effect effort of multiple raps
What matters at the end of the day is that in the henistic times from the 4th century and on from the 4th century before the common era and on some um scholars, some philologists of the time did a very important job. They collected all the first writings of the Homer epics and they did a profound philological work and preserved those texts for us today. So that's what matters to me the most is that we got to read in at the end of the day the Iliad and the Odyssey
And what matters less is the personality of the of Homer. Um mind as well there that at the time of um of Homer we hadn't received yet the Phoenician alphabet. So the Greek alphabet is based on the Phoenician alphabet. Phoenicians were known to be um very good um mercans. So
They would travel around the Mediterranean and that was when we we got in touch with them and we got the alphabet. the Greeks added the the vowels to this alphabet and that was when we started writing down.
So that happened a bit later than the time of Homer. So that adds a bit of credit to what Wolf said that Homer spoke in a certain version the homeic epics.
But how we got to the point of writing them down which was probably around the time of uh the tyrant pyistratus the 6th century in Athens. So there is a distance of more than 100 years. So there were other raps that preserved these epics and preserved the word of Homer and probably made some changes. So what we got today is the epics. I don't know if they're Homer's or someone else's, but we are lucky to have them. That's that's my conclusion if that makes sense. >> Yes, absolutely. like
That what you were saying about the personality of it of does this person actually exist did this person actually existed or not I guess is the the the importance and actually what we are trying to understand with not having any background on like you you know that's why we try to speak with people like you is actually we're pursuing with that idea of we're not trying to see if Odysius was real or not. We're just trying to see and try to reconstruct um from a historically point of view what
The text is saying. So that's why we choose this um approach of phology and not going from an approach of archaeology, let's say, or not that we are leaving it out. It's just like it makes a lot of sense to us that we are creating this documentary. um to take it from that perspective cuz um cuz actually before we started with this first script we didn't even know much how like what phology even meant. So when we started to understand it a bit more um obviously the focus for us
Was we choose to go from from that that perspective. So it's very important to us for you to give us the even your opinion on on on what is um what you think is the most important which it will not be the personality it will be more what comes out of the text isn't it >> absolutely and just not there for the archaeology that you mentioned um there's been excavations in modern Turkey in the northwest of modern Turkey and that's where we think that Troya Troy was so
There was at some point the Troan war for that we're sure if Homer existed we're not sure though but it's all the narrations that come out of that war and all the the morals that are um like interconnected with this story. >> Yes. And I guess that's exactly where I would like to go like um so this this story of this concept of our person that give us the Odyssey and the Iliad um or the Iliad and the Odyssey. Um so it would be used during Henistic times as an educational tool or something like
That. >> Mhm. Absolutely. And the interesting thing it was used is that it was used not only in Henistic times which is a lot later but it was used almost cont in the contemporary times of Homer as a tool for education. So um well I'll get into the education topic if that's all right. uh because Homer is on every time
Um even until today he's part of the educational system in modern Greece. So he's been present even though in every different time like the classical or the helenistic times at the same time there is a parallel interest into philosophy or into um rhetoric but Homer has been a constant if that makes sense. So um well in the in the 9th century um
At the time of Homer let's say a bit before Homer there was no formal education there were no formal schools and the education of the people were was a responsibility of the household or of the community. Um but since the time of Homer uh his epics
Um were served as lessons let's say on arete that I mentioned before which was the excellence the virtue um because there were role models like Achilles in the Iliad or like Odysus in the Odyssey but also they were good examples of what bravery meant. And because well in the Iliad we have a lot of war scenes or in the Odyssey we see how resilient Odisos is. So that was a sign of bravery. But we also get other ideas and lessons on loyalty or on even on cunning or on piety. Um so they are
Um I would say heavy on morals and that was why Homer served as a pedagog as a teacher of of moral identity for ancient Greeks. So [clears throat] moving on more towards the the 8th century. So I'm taking it way before the the helenistic times you asked me because I feel like it's important to show that he's been a constant in education. So from the 8th century on when we actually um
Had some elements of more formal uh education in [clears throat] the sense that there was sort of a curriculum. Um so um music, physical education
Were important as important as literacy or literature.
>> I'm sorry. I'm sorry Evian just in that topic. Um so you said uh there was could we say it would be fair to say that it was like three pillars of the educational idea that it will be as you were saying music um >> physical education >> like um the physical uh fitness I guess. >> Yeah. >> Know how to wrestle or whatever we that like to wrestle me and my brothers and everybody in the project. >> There you go. You're acting great.
[laughter]
I know something about music. You're interested about in that as well. So you're ready. >> Uh actually that was we didn't know about that when we started also with the project. So it has been very interesting how a lot of things are making us understand how we are very influenced still nowadays. So that's that's why I I just interrupt you a little bit with that idea of >> with that idea of uh these pillars of the education. So you said music was as important as the physical fitness or gymnasium concept
>> And grammar I guess is the other one or >> yeah grammar we'll put there literacy grammar literature all of it as language let's call it okay >> as far as the 8th >> century we already see this >> that's amazing [clears throat] >> yeah as early as the 8th century and um that is when we start having that idea. It's um like a saying in ancient Greek that says that the body and the soul should be in balance. That's the ideal. H so that um
Literally translated from ancient Greek um the healthy soul lives in a healthy body. So that makes physical education equally important to spiritual development through music or to um as well to literacy development that comes with moral education and other things that we can talk about that um a bit later. But they're equally important because nowadays there are like secondary um courses at school, right? You get an hour of music and if you're lucky, two hours of physical education, nothing more. Right. Um,
>> Exactly. That's why I think it's important to approach to approach it and to actually because it's it makes so much sense >> if you think about it like >> if you are actually uh going for um integral like >> yeah integral holistic >> yeah idea of education of course she will give at least a third to the body. Yeah, exactly. Um, so >> and the creativity part of it like the artistic
Um mind setup or I don't know how to put it in English, but >> yeah. No, exactly that. >> But yeah. So, so >> and so if you think about it, it it must have been really cool being a student back then, right? I think of the students I've had over the years in like public schools and I think of how much cooler it would be to be a student back then. So having equal time of music and physical education and literacy, let's call them all of that literacy lessons. It must
Have been really cool even the the literacy lessons. So when you have h teachings about morals in the form of a fun performance from a grammatist that probably has great skills into being a rapo as well. There's nothing like that nowadays. I mean when I had to teach history, I had to get into the class and literally talk for a while, you know. [laughter] Um so that was nothing like that. It was more interactive. Um it's a fun history lesson to have or literacy lesson, but it's also important to have music and physical education. Um so that is maybe
The seed of what education um was for ancient Greeks. So that is what we start calling pa which in my head is pedia for the reasons I explained before which in everyone else's head is education. Okay just to translate from all of the languages we all speak. So baa um is the same root as the word pedagogy that we use today but very different at the same time because nowadays the word pedagogy
Means teaching tools. So if I if I study pedagogy, I study as a teacher from the perspective as a teacher how to teach, how to transmit knowledge. But pedagogy back then was not at all what the teacher was doing. Pedagogy was the preparation, the moral preparation of the students for with different focuses every time. Maybe in the 8th century the focus was more on um
On individual development and maybe later on when we have the democracy um and we talk about the classical Athens and the democratic um the democratic system there. That is when maybe the education had more of a goal of preparing students to be good citizens. So different focuses but the heart of it it's the same. Okay. It's the preparation.
Um at that moment I think it would be um interest interesting um to to go towards the end of the archaic period just before classical Athens uh because there we start having more formalized um educational institutions
Um they look different in every city state because I keep saying and in Greece and ancient Greece But ancient Greece was not a country was just different city states that at times of history felt more connected to each other
And they would form let's say um parts in wars as we know like the pelponese war or the pelpony city states against Athens. Um, but they were not one thing. Anyway, I'll keep saying ancient Greece for the purposes of this of of of this conversation. That is that okay just to >> Yeah, it's perfect. It's perfect. Okay. >> Yeah. But that's actually is a very important point I guess the because we we know be when we were talking the other day that we didn't record and also the conversations I've
Been having with Ammon it's like yeah you might have an idea that Greece was something like modern Greece but bigger but it's it's not actually like that. It will be more like different states as you're saying with probably some differences but they had this thing that kind of make them part of the same culture which I guess was a language. >> Yeah, exactly. which again had many differences because if you if someone uh has um the ability to read ancient Greek and they read let's say the ancient
Greek text of Plato which is in attic and then you get the home epics on the side you'll see that it's quite different but it's not that you cannot understand it I mean there are some differences that still allow you to access the content and understand it. So yeah, I totally agree with what you said that it's the languages, the dialects
That keep them together and facilitated as well the communication. Um, so anyway, I'll keep calling it ends in Greece and maybe another time we can talk about what it means being Greek. And the word Greek itself is not Greek. is how the Turkish people called the Greeks a few centuries before. Right. We call ourselves Heleness. Yeah. Nothing to do with the word Greek. So a long conversation, but I'll put it in the freezer for now. Um so um yeah so at the end of the archic period uh more formal
Institutions educational institutions were formed um with different approach in each of them. For example, in Athens, they they would concentrate on the preparation of the citizens for whatever reason for taking positions as statesmen
Or later on for being participatory citizens. But in Sparta, for example, they had these camps, military camps where they would train and get ready for the war. So they looked very different but they were still formalized educational institutions. Okay that's what matters. Um even at that time Homer
Remained found foundational. He was like a constant in the curricula. H it could be that it he was taught the his poems were taught more let's say at the basis of the education like in the first literacy um teachings that kids would get at an early age. So it was like the cornerstone of literacy
And maybe not that much as it served before as like a history lesson. the morals that I mentioned before the role of the home epics may be shrunk to literacy um literacy goals let's say
Um but uh the in the classical uh times in Athens let's concentrate on Athens because as I said there were quite a few differences between city states we had more of a democratic uh pedagogy
So that was when we have a lot more formal educational institutions and the goal was more to um prepare the people the citizens with these values that the emerging democracy needed. So prepare them to um to participate in public life. So they were cultivating citizens. Let's say
A comment here. Education still was merely restricted to freeborn males. So it wasn't really something for everyone. Okay? There was no such thing for a very long time. So the freeborn males are obviously the ones that u don't have any um connection to slavery. They are the ones that have the right to be part of the Olympic games because as we said before physical education was a column a pillar in education. So it was extremely important to be athletic and a big honor to be part of the Olympic Games if you
Were a freeborn male. um they were the ones that also had a political power. They had the right to vote. Um and that was when the pedagogical goals um were more concentrated into the public life rather than the aristocratic training for the elites. I'm sorry um that I interrupt you, but just um connected with it. Um I know it's not in the in the overview but just for me not to to forget the to ask you >> because yeah you were saying for free males and um [clears throat] what do you
Think about um this education idea also for women that that was named like the oracles. So we we we were talking the other day about the well we know that aristocracy let's say was obviously getting a different treatment in the education I guess from the the whole >> culture and um but we talked about how you will train an oracle and it seems to be like from early age and just >> very early age zero almost >> and very high educated also in these three pillars like you you will get the oracles will not be like a just a crazy
Heippy in a cave doing drugs you know like like people might think it was actually like highly educated a highly educated woman or kid that becomes a woman after you know is what do you think about that just to make the parallel about what a male a free male will be doing and what a free uh woman will be or kid.
[laughter]
>> Putting a lot of quote marks there. >> Sorry. >> No, the free woman is because um that woman was did not choose they were newborns when they were um adopted. I'll I'll call it adopted by the oracles. Um so yeah, the first 10 years of their lives they would have intense education. The next 10 years they would uh serve um as um priests in the oracle or they would u serve as puta. Yeah. Pthea because pthea was not one woman. It was a role that was um um
For everyone that would have the gift to to serve in an oracle. And the last 10 years from roughly 20 to 30 years, they would be responsible for training the new blood the the the newborn
Girls that were donated to the Oracle. So in that sense I find it incredible that there was space for women even though they hadn't chosen it and they weren't aware. It wasn't a conscious decision. Um
But maybe it was more of a conscious decision in Sparta where women as well were military trained. Um so I think like oh there are a lot of aspects of femininity that are interesting to explore in in Greece uh through myths because well of course we get the idea that women were at home uh their the free women that had no connection to slavery their only purpose in NC Athens
Was to bring up kids they would stay at home they wouldn't be part of their public life. Um so in that sense we feel that oh women had no role in ancient Greece zero. But as you mentioned with the oracles h in Sparta with the military training through myths we're going to talk about medusa later there are a lot of elements in ancient Greece that show that women did not have that of a limited role as we think nowadays that they have let's say >> it's a long conversation I really want
>> Yeah I know I know I know because actually this is has been our central point I guess for the last six months like actually we we we went we haven't been talking too much about um the male role let's say we have been diving a lot more into into
The oracle so and and because as you were saying the we have a vibe of or or not a vibe um I always say vibe and I don't want to say Or not even that because I guess that if if you are not studying it like actively uh or having classes or you know you will get the idea that is in the collective that obviously is connected with what we see in the movies you know or what you see in the with this idea which has
Pretty much nothing to do with the actual thing that we can get from text that that was happening. So actually we were tracking the cult through the oracles like let's say the religious practices they had the initiation rights as I was telling you before and the the mystery rights and from what how can we trace it back to bronze age and all of that and >> obviously the the importance of the of woman in in all of these institutions even of the oracles were like u
I guess the question I wanted to say is like how how politically or like in the in the actual way that the culture or the city or the state uh will work, how how um how strong the word of an oracle will be like as a king as a you know is is m what an oracle says how important it is for everybody. Sorry, >> it's the most important because it's the divine word. Um it's not it's not Challenged and there is no um doubt on it. What is said is followed word by word if it can be understood. Right?
[laughter]
Because that's another story on how um complex sometimes in their simplicity um the the readings in an oracle can be. So that's another conversation. But they were never challenged. They were never doubted. Kings and heads of states, city
States never challenge them.
So well we we have a whole literary history like if we read the deepus both of the texts of adipus it's based on what an oracle said right that you will get um killed by your own son. So that's it. We have like two whole tragedies based on that. Um yeah the it was not doubt it was never doubted but um just to add something in the role of women even out of the oracles um because yeah they drove the the oracles drove uh the political things
Obviously but even out of the oracles we do have examples of important women like Aspacia the well the the partner I'll call her the partner of Periclas that was taking part in the symposia and was listening to all the political conversations and she had like a strong word in things and she could influence Pericles this important politician quite a lot. So I honestly believe that there is misconception that yeah women stayed at home full stop and that democracy in ancient Greece was just for men. But we keep we keep
Understanding the more we read the texts that that was not the absolute truth.
>> Yes. uh I wanted to take that a bit of that direction to connect it with the whole the topics we have been uh exposing actually and uh and and giving it in our YouTube channel which has been very um centrated not not absolutely obviously but a big um a big topic top topic for us has been this these oracles it takes your your attention of course >> of course because the best example of the role of human. >> Yeah. And well, I guess that takes us um
[clears throat]
To another ah I thought I was muted
[laughter]
To another um
Thing that I would like to ask you which is here in the overview. Um when we talk about the the views the like the philosophical view or which is I guess a big part of the mentality of the culture. Uh there is this concept of what is socratic or prestocratic
And well I was I I I thought that it was just to time frame stuff. Maybe it is I don't know. And but and but but I I know now I've been reading I've been reading this one. >> You know this one. Yeah. I guess you know this one. >> Ah there you go. Yeah. That's a >> the K and Raven Sh. [laughter] >> Yeah. Try try to see differences uh in in on it and the concept of >> I could elaborate on that. Yeah. What is your question? Uh well just in uh just the concept of socratic and
Prescratic can you can can can you give us an idea of what it is? >> Yeah. Um you gave me the best uh introduction because you said something that is really important that idea of prescratic because that prefix there preoccratic
Gives us the impression that is a timeline. Right? So is that they preceded they were before Socrates. Um but to be honest with you this term that was um if I'm not wrong first used by Herman H deals um and maybe in the late 19th century it it can be interpreted in a very wrong way. So it it it is a chronological term
Because it uses pre that as a prefix means before Socrates. But the actual truth is um some of them were contemp contemporarius to Socrates and to Plato. So is not accurately used as an chronological term. Also in my opinion it involves a bit of um of uh superstition like
The idea that whatever comes before the classical philosophy of ancient Greece the important in many quotation marks classical period of philosophy of Plato of Aristotle of Socrates himself obviously whatever comes before that could or is could be or is inferior to Socrates and Plato because by using the very word Socrates and putting their pre Socrates means that whatever comes before Socrates. So it's it's it makes you feel like whatever comes before Socrates is not as important. And just to mention that the word philosophers there pistocratic philosophers
That is what bothers me even more in the sense that they were not [clears throat] they were not identifying themselves as philosophers at all. They were identifying themselves as um inquirers
Into many things like a big vast variety of things. as I'm going to elaborate on a bit more. They really focused on cosmos, on the origins of the world. That what cosmos was. Um they talked about chemistry. They talked about all the common sciences, physics, geology,
Astronomy, and of course they covered some topics in theology, metaphysics, and ethics. >> Yes. I'm sorry. That's what caught also our attention um that how deep was what they were talking before like um they were actually not trying to I mean I guess it gets very evident that they were trying to explain physics like from a scientific perspective more than a well probably science and religion and intuition I don't know it will not very it will not been as separated as we have nowadays which will be like everything
Religious is in some department and nothing to do with science. >> So that's what I I um I we thought that it was very interesting to to show that um the view of the prescratics let's say. >> Yeah. So the well it's what you said they they had a lot of um interests and well what we learn about them is uh unfortunately through fragments. So
We we don't have any whole entire book by any of the prestocratic philosophers because they were not saved. But what we do have is um I don't know comments of their contemporary historians of later
Philosophers that were probably challenging what they were saying or we have like um testimonia like fragments in other people's work where they would sometimes quote them. So we have quotations from them but the analysis under this quotation would be of that philosopher that would challenge them agree with them or of a historian that would mention what it was said for whatever reason that served their book let's say their composition. Um, so what
We know for sure is that the prescratics, I'm going to get into some examples of what they were talking about and mention some important names, but what is more important is that they set the foundations for um naturalism and rationalism.
Naturalism is the idea that everything is governed by natural laws and rationalism that we still have in philosophy nowadays. So at the same time they of course contributed into modern philosophy but they paved the way for scientific investigation. So when we have prestocratic philosophers h investigating the ultimate basis the origin of the external world the ary
The uh beginning the ary in ancient Greek of many things the material principle that started the whole world which was later said by other scientists that was the big bang right but for priscatic philosophers. It was other things. The archy for example h for tis the from myus h for him it was water. Water that was the base of everything. For other ones was the air or we have later Hiraacus talking about fire as the origin of everything or an aimander earlier for um the unlimited
The aeron as the beginning of everything which can be quite confusing. >> Yes, that's amazing. Um I I guess we can keep diving a bit more on this and um I will because I have this ammon right into me. So if you don't mind I would like to to introduce you to >> Oh that would be a pleasure and then I could talk about the Socratic leg of your quest. We can double bet in the prestocratic still because it's a big one and yeah then we so I will let I
Will let let him in. >> Doctor
[Snorts] well I have to uh good and you I have to do the the you know the audio thing. So I'll just here is Aina uh this is Dr. Ramona. Uh I well I have talked to Ammon about you and I talked to you about Ammon a bit. Just a bit. >> Well, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure to meet you. I'm not sure why you talked about me to Dr. Ammon. I mean, [laughter] we know him. He's he's great in what he's doing incredible work and I
Know he's helped a lot in the podcast. And I mean, I feel we're all lucky to to have you around. >> Vina, please don't call me Dr. Almond. Just call me Almond. That's [laughter] that sounds so funny. Um, I'm glad to be able to meet you and to chat. And um, I'm looking forward. I want to probe your background, too. Could you just let me know a little bit about where your strengths are and the things that really drive you, the things that you're really interested in?
>> Yeah, sure. Um, so well, I studied classics obviously that's why I'm here. um in Athens. Um and the reason why I studied classics was because I've I was always fascinated by the world of ethmology on one leg and on the other leg by the world, the ancient world. And I've always wondered how life would be. And reading texts, original ones, even more h it makes you feel more connected to that world. Um so I was always fascinated by that. Then I strove away from that world and I studied Linguistics. So a betray
[laughter]
An errant philologist. What happened? You went into the No. Uh that's beautiful. Do you have any favorite, you know, ancient authors? Do are do you have a are you drawn to anybody in particular? I have a soft spot for tragedies. Like I love it. Well, of course, I studied Homer from the original text. I love it. Obviously, the language itself is so beautiful in the original form. Um, but I really do like um generally theater. So, I'm really drawn into reading ancient text. I always try to go
And see um the modern versions of tragedies. I find it very interesting. I don't know if you found yourself in um any time in epidarus epid have that struggle with the pronunciation. You probably understand me. >> Yes. No, that's okay. That's okay. I I you know how it is. I went to graduate school with um Tom and Kiki from um they were Spartans. They're just pure up Spartans. Um, but uh they it's the same thing. And I'm, you know, I have to apologize a little bit because I'm
Really I really like to stress the fact that modern Greek does not have the coining capacity. People are not coining anymore on a daily basis. that the language is somehow shut off, you know, like our English where where we are not functioning at that higher level that the Greek artists are functioning at. And um I've always been fascinated by the transition to modern Greek. You as a person who've been exposed to both you you've who've been in that in both of those arenas. Do you find that the ancient Greek um is challenging on a level that you know kind of reflects our
Own operating systems that are insufficient? Um do you feel that way about Mother Greek that she's just that much more profoundly powerful? Um, well, that's a big thing to say. Um, but well, as I said before to to Bruno, um, I find it a bit sad that modern Greeks feel like ancient Greek is a completely different language. Um, and there's been a lot of effort to change that view. That's why we've maintained actually we use the modern Greek accent pronunciation to read ancient Greek. It is an effort is the last research to maybe convince people that it's not a different language. So if that makes
Sense. And >> no and um you're exactly right that it's not a different language. It has it is a language that has been dragged down from a height and people have been fighting this ever since um the Byzantine scholars came in and said, "Hey, we need to bring back that purity." Look what Galen did trying to trying to bring back. I I thoroughly I I I am completely convinced that that seed of mother Greek is still there despite what has happened to modern Greek, despite the slowdown. I
Think and and the people have that core. If you can reform the language, if you can bring it back up to its um purity, that is take off all the restrictions that Katherine in you know enforces and stop the simplification and bring back the language that causes its users to create
Vocabulary. Um, and I would also say meter as well, music as well, because I think that's what Safo, what the big deal about Safo's new meter is, and because she's using the language, and I don't know, is that too, it sounds like I'm being harsh on modern Greek, but I think modern Greek could be elevated to its real, you know, glorious form. I don't know. Um, how are the modern Greeks now uh in educ getting educated in Homer? Do you still do the kids still have to take
Homer in high school? >> Yes. H it will really hurt you if I tell you that it's only from translated text translated to modern Greek. Sorry. Um, and I have more bad news for you. So it's only four years the obligatory education in ancient Greek. It starts in the beginning of secondary school. Sorry there I'm using more British my British uh past. So secondary school um from the age of 12 until the age of 16 is the obligatory education on NC Greek. Um so they learn the basics in grammar some words in Greek. They read
Very small extracts um mainly from historians because it's easier to follow um and at the same time they read um tragedies or Homer from translation and then at the age of 16 they have the choice there to to choose the topics they want to do for the last two years of school and that is where you decide if you're going to take the path of the future science science and computers or the boring one, Greek. And I was one of the very few people at school, maybe
Among nine students that chose that path. Well, >> yeah, >> that's isn't that cool? >> That's the reality. >> Yeah. I'm sorry. Can I ask um just a little bit for for ourselves here and for audience like at the beginning um ammon you you use this word um I'm sure I'm not going to pronounce it well but it was like um co what what what you meant because I guess I was talking with Aina before um when she was talking to us about this um this ability to create
Words constantly in with ancient um Greek the what you meant about this co with something related with that uh ammon. Yes. Yes, it is. Cuz as Aina will know um Greek has uh a history of rises and falls. There are periods when the language is very
Specifically oriented towards that formation of new vocabulary and then there are there are low points where the language is becoming common and it is less interactive. The person is less able to create their own vocabulary. So you get standardization
And people have tra traditionally called that coin a right and Venus linguistics will you know this this is all the laws of how the language works and everything so she'll understand that completely >> but the problem is that when you drop from that higher elevated form that has a very advanced vocabulary to a lower form that is not as structurally flexible. You not only lose vocabulary and the ability to make it, but you lose a flexible grammar that allows you to do specific things that you know they're
Like moves in gymnastics. It allows you to perform certain moves that you can't with a common >> form of the language that's been kind of dumbed down. And in antiquity, they are fighting. Greek speakers from all over the place, all over the Mediterranean are fighting over the purity, the power of that language. And they're led by people um second sophistics, they're led by people who are who are bringing um trying to elevate the language again. And that's what I think um when Aina talks about the people in Greece and what their desires are. And I know not a
Lot go down the track that you did to get back to the um mother Greek, but I I studied with two of them at University of Wisconsin through a PhD through a PhD. And they are very well aware um because of their exposure, their forced exposure, they're very well aware of this, you know, how the language can drop and rise and it's so confusing. Fina, let me ask you, let me ask you this. Um, have you noticed that seminaries, religious educations
Tend to create these fake worlds where when they bring you like Greek for example, they'll tell you there's a difference between coin Greek, which is just the common Greek, and the attic Greek of Athens in the tragedies that you're so loving to read, right? um you can put Escalas next to um the New Testament, right? And you can just study the differences in the language. You can see what's happened, the flexibility and and um for some reason churches tend to perpetuate this by you know you I've had
People come to me and say, "But wait a minute, Coin A is not ancient Greek or classical Greek." And it's just like, "Oh my god, people, what are you smoking?" You know what is it? It just I don't know what what is your linguistics background, >> right? >> Honestly, I I don't I don't know if many people know that, but in a Greek church, yeah, everything that is heard nowadays in the Greek church is that co the the language of the New Testament. It's ridiculous in my opinion because people
Still don't understand it. We've already talked about the disconnection of modern Greeks from ancient Greek language, but even later forms of it. So, I find it ridiculous because most people go to church and they don't even understand what's happening. [laughter] >> Right. Isn't that something? Isn't it something? Look. Oh, God. Thank you for saying that. Oh, it's so good to get that perspective. I I even need to make a whole syntax and everything in my head if I get to be in a place where this is read because yeah of course I studied
That but that doesn't mean that I'm not like oh that was the verb so that was the subject and that's what what's going on in my mind it's crazy imagine the average person that doesn't get any training in singing Greek because for years is nothing what do you learn the conjugations of verbs and >> the yeah the and nouns, nothing else. >> It's it's amazing that um we can still open up that we still have access to that font that is there. It's sitting there and you know the spark that you
Have for those tragedies like why is that when you get into the language and when you're being oh god it it restructures your mind and the way that you think it orders it. it morphology itself. Let's not even get to the ideas that are transmitted from these texts. >> Yeah. >> Let's talk barely about anything else but the words. >> Yes. And the organization the organization >> that the order of words for example that is so different in ancient Greece and now we all follow the same motive like
In English subject verb object. And I was saying the example I ate an apple and that was I an apple eat. >> Yeah. >> Back then every morning. So >> we've we've been barbarianized. We've been turned into those people who weren't speaking that melodious beautiful beautiful gorgeous Greek. And people don't understand but um just the use of particles. There's something in in ancient Greek called a particle. And these particles basically tell you the relations between previous sentences and the sentence that you were working on. They will tell you
Where you are within this within the entire structure of the written word. And by the way, you don't need to see a verb people until eight lines later. You can keep all of this juggling. How are they able? The first time I was sitting in Homer and I was reading to I was like, "Wait a minute. That that one thought, that one sentence we would say was eight lines long,
>> Right? How do we did we keep track of oh look at the particles and what the they're setting things up in the people's brains that are using it that they can string out this music. It's not bar bar English bar bar. >> Don't say I I have a part of me that's a linguist. Please don't say that because that part of me is hurt. [laughter] The other part of me the philologist agrees with you. So I'm like have two personalities.
But you're abs [laughter] Bruno what I was talking about before because Bruno asked me about the differences of philology and linguistics and I said you >> yes elaborate a bit Aina please on that the I know you you told us the difference um
But just as it seems like between you two obviously you understand more what you mean when you say why a linguist and a phologist are like in kind of different two departments. Um can can you explain to us a bit the villages in >> Yeah. I'll also I'll also [clears throat] add to what Ammon said that it was so much denser in S Greek. So, um, a good example of that is that I bet that's in every language that when you get like a, um, a book, edited book
Of ancient Greek texts with a translation to another language, almost always, please um, correct me if I'm wrong. You probably have a lot more experience than that. The ancient Greek text is like half page and the translation next to it is like a full page and a half. And you're like, wait, isn't that line by line also it's multiple sentences though? So the period in ancient Greek has like a main verb, but on that main verb, we have many ideas hanging from it that in a modern language can only be explained
By multiple periods because you cannot follow up such a long sentence. So it's exactly what you said before, right? Yes. It's not a dance, right? In those languages, it's not a dance anymore. In the Greek, it's a dance. And you're taking in the whole thing in your mind at once. I had a >> memorization, the use of brain. They were memorizing thousands of verses to to perform the homeic epics.
>> Wouldn't they be able to hold five tabs at the same time until they get to the verb? >> Correct. Correct. And that's why when you mentioned that when you get a translation, it's always longer. The translation is longer than the original. It's because the people and that's completely standard. The people are struggling to be able to take a complexity and bring it into an in in one case English, right? Into an English form. So they have to line up these Oh god, it's awful people. It's awful. You
Don't um you can take this from an understanding if you really want it in perspective. Think of one word. We have oystraomania in uh ancient Greek, which is this craziness caused by the sting of the gadfly. Okay? Right? Listen to how much English I had to put into that. Right? Whereas that one word is capturing that concept which none of us in English have thought about. What does when you get bitten, you know, you're the horse out in the field and when you get bitten by that gadfly, what is the response that you have in your spirit to that gadfly?
You have the oystromania. How is that oystromania? How is that exactly what the spirit of prophecy produces? Why are the prophets, the oracles, why are those dancers in states of oystromania? And how is it that the Christos that that application of a drug leads to oystromania? How is it that um you cannot express these concepts except in a whole bunch of English words? And >> can I jump in there because you gave me the amazing example to to use to answer the question of Bruno about the linguist
And the philologist. So a philologist is what exactly what you say admires and respects that idea that with one word you can describe a whole concept. Maybe a linguist will say yes but you can still express it. It doesn't matter if it is one word of a whole phrase. Does that make sense Bruno? So it's not that you don't respect the language, but you say well you can still say it in other words in another language >> and um >> it can make sense. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. It's more
Like it's it's like but does the actual word phology implies in his actual meaning of it but what it will mean uh in Greek phologist because we like this is the logos and filo I guess and I guess the whole concept >> implies >> a relationship with the logos let's say Yeah. >> So from from maybe >> from the a linguist >> um it will be more about I don't know how to explain it but maybe there is a word in in in Greek or ancient Greek for a what will
Be a linguist and it will be a different a linguist back then than a phologist. Let me let me answer that one by saying what you need to read are the people who study and write about the grammat. That's what we're really dealing with, right? You have exactly you have all of these ancient works of ancient Greeks writing about their own language.
They're writing about how to use it. Lax where do you think the first lexica the lexicon the concept of a lexicon comes from those Greeks right who are right who are creating this understanding this philology you would call it how the language is working how the words are working and my god man in um in a lexicon oh god I'll think of his name in a second but in one of our lexica
It is itas I think it is um he talks about he he gives us a lexicon of the unusual words in Greek and in alpha alone there's like 10,000 entries so that's 10,000 just unusual words defined and remember when he's defining the word he has to come up with a way to define it. So, it's like an exercise. The grammarians um are the are the source of really this it's like the science of the language and it's really when you talk about linguistics um it's being pioneered by these Greeks.
I mean, you know, it's just the it's the way it is. It's gorgeous. Uh the it's just Bruno that um the when we started uh talking about the the ancient times we were not using the word grammatistice grammarian or philologist
At all. We were using mostly the word scholars maybe. So we were replacing that word in Greek. So that's why we can't trace back to what they really were grammarians. So that is why we're disconnected. That's why probably they ask Ammon or me, what is it that you do? What does that mean? Philologist, what what is it? Are you a philosopher? Well, I take it sometimes because they're thought to be smart. So well, it depending on the context. Sometimes they say yes, sometimes no. >> Yeah, sometimes there's
>> I'm a philosopher. Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. Actually that was the first and with with the first uh thing that we published with Ammon the first the first question I had was what is phology?
[laughter]
Yeah, because it's like not not many people actually know. >> You know what I would like to define it now as that spark that we just saw, right? What is the tragedy? Why what why are we drawn to tragedy? There is something in it that feeds us that, you know, there's a reason they're always infoking the muse. Greek speakers, I don't care where they're from in antiquity, and they're from all over the place. There is something that Greek speakers have with this notion of that invocation of the muse, right? You
Really don't understand it. People think, "Oh, it's just a nice thing to start off a song. You just you you pray to a muse, an invisible being to show you the reality." You know, people don't understand the sophisticated mechanics
That are behind it because who are those muses? They're the daughters of memory, right? the daughters of memory and everything that these poets all remember all of this written stuff is coming like but where's it coming from look at the early lyric poets man right look at Homer these are songs these are kithods these this is this is language that is is is accompanied
By music and by the way they invented the they invented the liar is it am I wrong did they not invent the guitar. >> Really? But also, it's interesting how there are muses that inspire you to study history because the word news makes us think of music, right? Isn't that Isn't that right? Yeah. Of course, there were muses of dance, muses of song making, but there were muses that supposedly inspired you to write or to tell history or astronomy.
[clears throat]
>> Yeah. to inquire. >> Yes. For >> inquire. This is what it's all about. Before inquiry. >> Sorry. >> Yeah. I love it. >> Well, for you to know, Ammon, because we we were speaking before for like an hour and a half and uh and we talked about this. So, it's great that I for for us here hearing both of you talking about it because we we we I have been talking with you before about this now with Aina. This is you just met right now. So
It for us is a privilege to have you both here like um >> for me it's a privilege to be here with them. >> Aina can Aina can I ask you have you had much of a chance to look at any of the medical or drug stuff or any of the like weird sources like the the acts and stuff like that from Neander. Have you had any sort of, you know, has any of that kind of stuff come up in the past? Because traditionally, the reason I
Asked that is traditionally that stuff is not taught in at least American universities. It's not taught in classics departments. So, you kind of have to specialize. Have you come across any of that stuff along the way? >> Um, you're right. It is not taught not only in the US, but nowhere in the world. I think maybe you're one of the few people that have the privilege to to analyze these texts. H but to be honest with you, I feel privileged to have studied classics because at any moment I
Feel I have easy access because I understand Greek. I have easy access to any text. Um however um I have because at the same time I'm working on a project a techologological project that really really fascinates
Me. It's um it's that side of me that is a philologist that part of me from the dual personality that I have. Um so it's a project I call you already speak Greek. Um, and it
It it is it explores the ethmological origins and the historical development of certain words that are used in an in Greek texts um and that have survived up until today. And these words are
Only taken out of the world of human emotions. So words that we use today like melancholi or um nostalgia these are just two examples there are so many more euphoria and so on and I explore what they meant in the original texts and how they have survived today if they still have the same meaning like nostalgia that was not really mentioned it was a later um text that talks about nostalgia but it was very wellrived D nosttos and um Algos in Homer. They're very very close there in the first
Verses um of Odyssey like one line below one from the other. >> Yes. >> But still these concepts how they have traveled through time and how we use them today. So in one of these explorations I took, I read a bit more of Hypocrates
>> And I I love how the word melancholi which is used in plural melancholies um in um in his text um air, water and places if it's that's translation in English. >> I hope I'm not uh wrong on that in the translation. So there he speaks about the bile and and how people that tend to be more um um
I I'll say that well yeah they're more they're more prone let's say to have melancholies if the weather is drier during a year. So the idea is how the climate affects the human body. So I haven't really done a thorough study in all medical texts. But when it is an investigation that I need to do for a certain reason, I I feel fortunate to be able to access the texts and and read obviously the important work of many philologists that analyze this text and they give me an insight um and a layer
Um extra than the one that I would get linguistically if that makes sense. So yeah, I don't have like a a long uh relationship with the medical.
>> Oh, sorry, Eva. Ammon just uh because this is a perfect word that you choose to make an example because we talked about this this this word from the perspective of Ammon like uh I don't remember when but we talked about ammon do you remember that like the way that in the medical like the way that they were approached in a medical way uh to the person that is suffering from this melancholy would you from your research ammon would you give us like um an idea of that?
>> Yeah. So right out of the hippocratic corpus you have the hummeral they call it hummeral pathology right that's that we hear being described and one of those one of those imbalances that you can get is of the black bile and that's why melancholia
Is the disease that affects the person who is entering into um this yes weather driven right weather influ in influences it diet influences it right um and uh the uh Galen is so involved with the diagnosis of melancholics and the treatment of melancholics he's got drug regimen to treat them and everything um that he writes an entire work on black bile um and on melanch collie. And in that work, he talks about how the black bile can also influence the um the eruption of plagues, right? Skin
Problems you can have ultimately connected to the melancholy. And how do you treat this abundance of black bile? Well, it's, you know, through these different drugs that will affect your moistness, your dryness, or your heat and your cold. So, it all comes back to one thing. And I had to translate, by the way, for my master's thesis. It was a translation of Galen's black bile. So, I'm I'm not I'm not pulling any of this out of my backside. This is these are real texts. You can go and look at them.
Right. So um part of the black bile issue is its effects on what we would say is psychology right depression you'd call they were talking about depression right well yes kind of but in a more in a broader picture >> corporal still it wasn't that of a mental state yet it took a while Aristotle maybe mentioned that again the word melancholy and it start giving it a different um context
We we're still talking about something that appears in the body. It took years to think of melancholy as Freud thought about it as a type of psychic, right? The type of >> personality, let's say, >> which is almost like well, we couldn't quite grasp the Greek concept in its whole. So here we're going to take a little side aspect of it and say okay this is now we're talking about a mental process of depression blah blah blah and we're going to call that melancholy. Um yeah no there's a whole it has a much
More it's much more integrated um the world of ancient medicine is much more imig integrated with you know like you were saying weather airs waters places why is what what what is the water and air I'm the air I'm breathing and the water that I'm drinking what does that have to do with my state of health and whether or not there's going to be an epidemic this year right I I mean it's it's you know it's complicated gorgeous science that I find myself reading it just being just having to hang on when
Galen talks about drugs when you know drugs that are used in the treatment of melancholy um he talks about drugs that are used in the um with sex problem problems with uh sexual dysfunction you know it's wait a minute is this I've even read it wasn't Galen but it was one of the I think it was a Byzantine Paul of vagina maybe uh who's writing about the treatment of um disorders of the mind disorders of um thinking is I guess is what we would we would call it and in that he talks about melancholy and again
Drugs that are used to treat the melancholic state and there's an overlap between those treatments and sexual dysfunction treatments. So, I've all the material is advanced and um all you can come away from that with at least me, I don't know, is that you're trying to use an operating system to comprehend a much more advanced uh system than you're capable of. And if you had the these oneword concepts that they come up with um that are compounds that they've put this whole ladder of words together the ones that usually in our dictionaries or lexica or modern English lexica right or from 1850s or lsjs
They'll just put we don't know what this is like let me ask about this one the verb um bo to become bak right what the hell does that mean there's no in English when they translate that into English >> there's no little Scott can explain can >> can we well I'm I have an idea of what I want to ask you both but can we just make a small okay yeah >> comment that that was exactly what I was saying it's not only the concepts that they came up with is this abstract
Phonms that put in that order to create the word Whatever pa call it whatever how did you decide it's called pa and not ABC >> like this [clears throat] is the incredible thing not only the concept but the the creation of words and I agree in everything that you said ammon we we are both amazed by the same things sorry Bruno >> okay you gave me a bit of order in my mind also because I wanted to go like oh let's talk about ba and [laughter] but which which we all love. And uh but we
Were talking before Ammon um about the prescratic and socratic idea like I was obviously asking about if this was just to time frame something and well we are understanding that not because I also asked you before and every was telling me that there is different obviously ways of seeing or or or make philosophy or something that but if we were in the in the middle of it a bit so I guess it's connected because we are talking about this concepts difficult to give you an idea of what is this or what is what of what is that and as we mentioned
The prescratic way of thinking I guess it's connected with um with how complex the language can get to talk about what they were talking like science of trying to explain what is the how the earth was formed or whatever. So uh could we um take again a from what we were talking about this way of thinking of the prescratic and then we go into the socratic can we take do you remember where not that you don't need it to do it from the same part that we were before like just as you want
>> I was just talking I'll try to remember what I said but maybe yeah it was a [laughter] a comment that I made that yeah even the word prescratic is not how they called themselves obviously it was given to them a lot later in the 19th century in maybe by Herman this um if I'm not wrong um so they were not calling themselves prescratic obviously
Because that's not a way to define yourself and obviously that doesn't mean that necessarily they came chronologically before the Socratics because Some of the prescratic philosophers were contemporary to Socratics and also the idea that we use prescratic as I said before to Bruno to me um is like say I don't know using the [clears throat] word socratic to define someone else um it it makes me think that um it's a bit offensive to them. It makes us think of them as inferior to Socrates because they came before
Socrates. Also the word philosophers, are they really philosophers? Yeah, they influenced philosophy in many ways, but they were not calling themselves philosophers. They were at most I will call them inquirers, thinkers that had a very vast um let's say portfolio of topics. Yeah, I think I agree. I think it's a much better way to describe them as natural philosophers than philosophers because all of their works are about the basics of nature and how the physics >> naturalism. >> You could also you could I I mean I'd be
Happy to call them physicists, you know, as opposed to, you know, you're right about prescratic, right? Who made that up, right? [laughter] Gorgeous harmony. One of the things they're coming up with is harmony. How what do you study if you derive harmony? Like what is harmony mathematically and what is and just the concept? Why not? >> Yeah. >> It's it's mind-blowing. It's you see this. We're both the same junkies. We're following the we're smoking the same ancient dope, man. It's it's gorgeous. Oh god. Go ahead. What? I'm sorry I
Interrupted, but Exactly. Right. Don't do that to me. I have someone you're here. >> Yes, Paravina. I I would love to uh to take it from you just said cosmos and that was the actual word we we were on it when we were speaking about okay we understand pocratic we don't we don't care about the name of the definition >> more science yeah thinkers inquirers >> and what will what they were um talking about what was the inquiry that they were doing I know it's very broad
Probably but >> can we okay >> of course so they talked um about the origins of the of the external world. They were looking for where this world came from. Um the way in modern times we talked about the big bang, right? How did we start having air, water around us, soil, where did that come from? And some people may say, well, that's a theological inquiry, religious one. Because back then they thought that the gods would um give order in the world and each god was responsible for other
Parts of the world like Dimitra um for the crops. So that's where we get food from. But for um the philosophers, the pritocratic philosophers as used I'll use that term just for this podcast. The prescratic philosophers h were looking for what started the world. They were looking for the seed. Was it water that started the world? Was it fire? Um what was it that started this world? And this is an exploration for the for the material principle of things, the ar the beginning of this world. Um so there uh
We have many ideas that would be called today that would fall under the category of science as Ammon said right. Of course we have some other ideas like the impermanence of the world from Heracleus
Everything flows that he said. We have other people talking about how strange it is to think of gods as people. Senophanist the anthropomorphism of gods making them look like they're anthropos people. Yeah. how they drink and eat like people do or how they have uh weaknesses in their personalities or um yeah how they act and think because in all the texts that we get we get um in Homer for example gods are a big part of um the Homer epics and they're described as humans. So then we have the pistocratic philosophers questioning
That um and of course a lot more work on numbers with pagoras that's where we get pagoras theorem theory in maths h we have the atomism in democrus we have very important work they set I would say the foundations for um the scientific investigation nowadays and of course they were the inspiration for western philosophy like naturalism that everything is governed by natural natural rules and laws, rationalism and other things. That's what made us give them the name of philosophers probably. But they have done a lot of work in other in other aspects other
Than philosophy because nowadays we think of philosophy as something different to science. So that's why I'm saying that with modern um with our modern criteria, we cannot think of philosophy and science as one thing. >> Right. Right. >> Yeah. >> Right. And a perfect a perfect um followup is the medicine is related in the same way. The what we'd call the prescratic
Um philosophy is bleeding into creating for us questions of medicine and well if this is what's happening on a level that we cannot see um then how is that applying to the medicine what are the things that what are the things that we cannot see for example in drug action which they used to use the word epangelia which is very close to uangelia right the gospel what is the efficacy of the drug that's how the doctors are referring to it what is its gospel right And um the the basis for the doctors trying to understand how the pharmacy what we call the pharmacy is
Working is coming from that prescratic prescratic natural inquiry and some of them are actually physicians as well and people don't realize that for example the probably the most brilliant of I don't know tell me if I'm wrong but if you just look at Pythagoras for example Just look at Pythagoras. Um people think he's a mathematician. Like what do you call it? He's a mathematician. He's a philosopher. He's >> right. He's coming up with geometry. But nobody knows that he was a physician. Nobody knows that. I don't know how they
Get managed to get washed out of the history. But empetically, same thing. These people are are practicing physicians who are you know we kind of look at them as like weird um you know magic using they're almost like shaman kind of people. So is it fair to call them philosophers? Right. Ah ah man. It's this it's you're exactly right. It's us trying with our barbarian operating system trying to reassemble something that's much more complex than we can really we can really you know digest >> and don um okay so if we add the ingredient of medicine also to these
Ideas of like this is the cosmos where we are questioning stuff that came from before like you were saying Aina And now we add this ingredient of medicine. Can could we say that all of these uh different stuff that were just one idea of what the cosmos is I guess or something like that was what was creating actually this inquiries like in in in itself let's say what I'm trying to ask ammon is like you think medicine or the drug use or the the the physicist
Practice was actually uh making them engaging more with trying to answer these questions more than another topic that you can choose you know as a human >> I can't answer why I can't tell you why it happened but we can show just through the literary evidence that there is a some sort of renaissance some sort of classical renaissance that's coming to us through the Greek. I mean, our renaissance medieval, it's just a reflection. It's it's a renaissance because of that Greek original. But what I'm trying to say is that Greek original, and I think it is languagebound,
Right? There are not other Mediterranean cultures that are outside of the Greekeaking world that are deriving these very same concepts. It's not happening. There is a spark that is happening in the Greek world that is Greekeaking world that is facilitating their ability
To create the science to see how all the mechanics work. So a physician for example let me we talked about Pythagoras if Pythagoras is going around healing and he's performing purggations with drugs and these healings affect the person's soul.
Um what is he? Is he religious? Is he a religious figure? Is he a physician? Is he a scientist? And the answer is yes. The fact that you can't see that he can be all of those things at once is why Pythagoras is walking around telling people a 22 plus b 2= c^2 which you know for damn sure if you were to walk up to a modern-day physician and tell them to derive some geometry or calculus to to you know they're going to tell you oh
Look I just took the basics of what I could to get my grade and get out of basic calculus. They're not thinking as the Greek was allowing Pythagoras to think, right? Um there's a reason that we have this strange idea of why the Greeks could perform calculus. How could they do? Didn't they have to derive certain No, no, no. It's coming through the language itself. I have a collection of Greek mathematical works, right? And in those Greek ma mathematical works, basic calculus is explained, integrals is explained
Not [clears throat] with conceptual images, not with calculations, but with words. It's almost as if the Greek gave the world a superior ability to deconstruct the world and then reconstruct it in the form of these visions of tragedy and all of these things like that. Um because we're talking about prescratics and the medicine and the wisdom, the science that's in it. But remember, this is all um when we get to the stage, we're in the same place because the stage in Athens is a religious operation where
The public is purged, right? We're performing um sacrifices of incense. We're burning incense. We're entering into that, right? Again, is it medical? Is it theatrical? Right? Yes. The qu the answer is yes. and and uh it's my opinion Vina you chime in tell me what you think but it's my opinion that it's the language that's driving that um reality let me give you one more example in um with escalas um when we have the po population of a city that's being oppressed somehow with what you
And I would call bad news um what they do is they create sacrifice of incense in order in that they have specifically prepared with Christing the process of Christing it's very specific in order to affect the population as a whole they're fumigating the city is in order to allow them to react to bad news and my question is um What at what level are these people operating that they have no distinction between when we go to Sunday to our church and we sit in our church and we make our
Signs and we take our communion um that has nothing to do with hospital. It has nothing to do with the practice of medicine. But in antiquity it is everything a purggation whether it's your purggation for your crimes right whatever those are your moral failures a purggation of that in a an assembly a religious assembly is a theater
That is a doctor's visit right those purggations that Galen is writing about where do you think they're getting all that knowledge from why do why is he going to the priestess of Artemis on Limnos to get 20,000 pills or how many other thousand pills it was of her drug to take to prescribe to the people of Rome. Why are they using a religious drug
On people in Rome? Because it's not religious. That oracle, that priestess, she's she's functioning in multi realms at once, right? all the knowledge. That's that's why Plutarch is talking. He's talking to a priestess to get all of this knowledge, right? To be I don't I don't know. >> Sorry, I'm and sorry, Aina. I just just a little a little small because we actually we were were talking with the Vina about also that um um the oracle and how and now it connects a lot because it's a wider view of of the world I guess cuz Aina was telling us
That the oracle will be highly educated from even zero years it will be prepared for it. nothing was above it kind of thing. So in like um um so I >> yeah the word of the oracle was very important and respected by everyone. >> Yeah. >> So I guess it it it relates with medicine also. So they they the oracle will if you were given this example I mean about um Galen we're talking about another time frame I guess now but Galen were was going to lemnos to take some
Prescription or some drugs of some medicines to bring to Rome that were being made u I mean this priestess was doing So we can see again how this religious stuff will be related with medicine also. >> Yeah, this priestess, hey, hang on. This priestess is not actually out there doing it. She has an army of people that she oversees in the process of collecting
And forming the final product, which is called the Limnian seal. Everybody in the Mediterranean knows about it. And it's used in multiple multiple multiple prescriptions. So that's why Galen goes and gets thousands of Limnian seals. And that seal is a reference to her own
Image that is branded on the troiscocoy, these little pills that they make. And that image is impressed on it. So you can know, oh, this is true Limnian, right? It's Limny. They call it Limnian Earth is the street name. You've got to get some Lim Limnian Earth. And uh um
That priestess is overseeing an operation that's a very large sophisticated operation that Galen can go pick up thousands of these pills. Remember, nobody else can make this stuff. The knowledge of it is is preserved with that priesthood. So it will be like she has the the knowledge and the people is working through that knowledge that she has because of their that she's education >> just like processing of the purple right there's all sorts of people involved in processing it so yeah it's an operation >> okay and um so I I have this idea if both of you don't
Which is like um we talked a bit at the beginning Nina but we left it for the for the end. um we said to us the the meaning of the word or concept even or figure or title
I don't know of medusa and and you you you told you told us um it was protect it was pro protector or guardian or something like that will you will you can we open this discussion about this medus idea um with with um what you were saying at the beginning Aina and then we chat about please
[laughter]
>> Um so yeah I'm well it was a different context we were talking about um that's an interesting idea that Ammon mentioned as well I think it runs through philology as a concept the people that are amazed by philology how many times in Greek texts I'll call them texts. It can be anything. Pros, poetry, whatever.
We have heroes, protagonists, uh, of myths called in certain names that ethmologically describe how this heroes are. So, Medusa. So, there my question was, and still a question, and Ammon, you're welcome to answer it. Um, is it the chicken that does the egg or the the hen comes from the egg? What is how do we decide that that lady Medusa
Is going to be called Medusa which means the guardian of the temple of Hatenna of many other ideas feminist included ideas of um that that could be used as interpretation of that myth of Medusa. Do we put that name later or because of the name we get inspired for the myth? That does that make sense? What I'm asking? >> It does. And I wish I knew. I wish I knew. And I'm such a >> That's what I said. >> I'm such a careful classicist that I I'm
Perfectly happy to think about which came first, the chicken or the egg in that case. But at the same time, I'm limited. I know unless I find an ancient source like a grimaran who says and I haven't I've read lots of grammarians and I haven't seen it. I can go look for it now though see if we can dredge something up but yeah it's a why do you call Hermes the Medusa? Why is he the one who's un in a certain passage is characterizes that that one who brings the safety of the government
That one who brings the safety of the ruling powers I mean that one who's really driving those medusai then end up really driving temple activity um when they say the I read a Um, I read a Greek source, and forgive me, I've read so many Greek sources, I've forgotten more than I've read. Um, I've forgotten more than most people have read, I should say. Um, a Greek source was, and maybe you'll recognize this, Athena. A Greek source said, "Dragons and wolves are the guardians of the temples. the ones who really are
Involved with whatever the temple is doing, however it's processing, however it's functioning, whatever pragmata it's producing, right? It's proxies. And um when I read that I was like, "Oh shit." So all those times I've seen those references um to the wolves at this temple, wolves associated with the temple, why are they using wolf iconography? Oh god, it just came flooding to me. So in the Medusa in the Medusa
Chicken and egg um was there a priestess of the temple of Athena? That's what we have. We have a priestess of the temple of Athena who was murdered in different ways. Murder, whatever you can put it. She's the origin of that thing. That hideous skin of Zeus's
Nurse, who's a a woman, by the way. That skin has the head of that Medusa affixed to it. And that's the image that we are using as a defense. We who worship the virgin on the hill. I mean, which came first? Did that priestess come first or does the idea that we have in mother Greek of what a priest what what what that priestess would be doing how she would be functioning? Well, I think it's the same thing in Maya. If you look at the name for Maya in Greek, it really
Just means to act as a midwife. So, which came first, the midwife? And they called her Maya. Maybe that was her name, right? >> [sighs] >> Oh god, >> had the same question. Bruno, I was telling you the same things before. That is this is the magic of NC Greek. What comes first, the concept or the name? Well, it doesn't matter at the end of the day. We're lucky to have both the concept and the name of whatever it is. But I I can't I can't be calm unless I
Know the actual truth, what came first. So that's I think a drive for many philologists if I'm not wrong. It all of it comes down to the language. Why did we put that name? When did we come up with that name? The chicken and the egg thing you were saying. >> I think you I I think what you said about English and the project you're working on um your mo English or other modern languages. Look um you've got to look back to mother Greek because every
You mentioned Euphoria and that is such a perfect example. Um, ecstasy I think is another good example. Imagine they were able to come up with imagine they were able to coin and come up with a concept that you and I think of ecstatic except it's bigger. It's not exactly what you and I think of it. It's bigger in antiquity. It's associated with cult activity. It's ex it's associated with a process of entering into communication with a divinity. Right. Right. When you and I say now you
And I sit around and we're like ecstasy. Well, that's a specific drug, but yeah, it kind of means this like place where you can go on a drug. Do you see how we've Oh god, that's Isn't that the dope? That's the dope. >> I agree. We are like the the nerd association here. Absolutely. >> You should totally continue that project. You should write something. You should do some computer analysis on it or something using all your linguistic training. You know what I mean? Because you've got the linguistics really gives
You the mathematical kind of backing of all the language. We can sit around and as you as you know in classical philology and get stoned all day on the beauty, right? you have you your other personality wants that math and wants that very um logical explanation of what's going on and um if you can show the world are you going to show the world then that what they're speaking is like a dumbed down version of this beautiful Greek original
>> Um ancient Greek in its form that we read we studied today is maths the syntax of ancient Greek is mathematical It is connected. You cannot like anything Greek without liking order and math. Generally speaking, math, logic, let's call it, okay, better called as logic, not math like 1 + one, obviously. Um, so yeah, I mean, I would be very interested to continue the the project. I I find that many people use words today and they have no transparency to the ethmology. And yeah, of course, in the in the case of melancholia [clears throat]
Um or melancholy, whatever you call it in whatever pronunciation you want, it's the same. Um yeah, it's changed a lot, but there are other words, other concepts that the core of them is the same. And it's beautiful for people that don't have this native ability that because for me it's very easy to see the ethmology. Someone tells me nostalgia and I know already what it means. The pain, the effort you need to put to go back or the feeling of missing your home. It can be many things, right? Like
Endless things. So I feel like it's it's a nice project and thank you for uh using these words that I should continue. It's it's very uh very nice to have that support and of a fellow and a great philologist like yourself um who can at least see what my intentions are with this project. >> Don't say great philologist. Oh god, don't nemesis. She's sitting right over there. She's gonna hear it and I'm gonna make some giant blunder and everybody's gonna say, "Oh god, this is what a great
Philologist is." No. people. One thing I need you to understand the audience now I that we both understand is that Greek is so beautiful and so beautifully mathematically geometrically reasonably complex that every time we're in her presence we're humbled. And our goal is to become
So intimate with her that we have that that that constant familiarity, that constant dope that you get from the language cuz it's an addiction. Once you start reading classical Greek, it gets into your system somehow. You're willing to sacrifice. You know, Aina, you could have made a lot more money as a lawyer or something. If you can do classical Greek, you could have done law. You could have, you know, you could be making the big bucks right now, but you know, you've had the crack and you know
That this stuff is addictive and it's gorgeous and it could change the world, right? The Venus sees that you're speaking modern languages that are take that are drawing from that gorgeous gorgeous well and she's going to bring that vision to the world and that's I mean that's what you know she's a post-scratic philosopher
[laughter]
But what I mean also is that we have different starting points in the sense that you covered a lot more to be able to read these texts for me it was a lot easier because I I had this innate curiosity um about ethmology like in my free time as a kid I was reading the dictionary please I mean that's not that >> that's what I'm saying we don't have the same starting point >> yeah my home to read the dictionary but the point is that you had to learn a language from scratch and it's very
Difficult to learn anything in Greek Greek if you don't speak modern Greek, >> right? >> And vice versa, >> right? No, no, it's a you've got a leg up. You've got a leg up, right? Definitely, you've got a leg up. And especially if you come from bog trotting g uh English, right? English is not English is not conducive, right? And you think, oh, wait a minute. English borrows so many forms. Yeah. Why do you think English borrows 30% to 40% of its own native forms, right, that you think
Are native English words? Why is it borrowing those from Greek? Why is it doing? Because it doesn't have the capacity. It's how my brain was set up. And you've got to sit humbly and look at the Greek and say, "Oh my god." Um, if I can, I'm going to take this in. And there are times that we go to class, you know how this works. Vina, we go to class and you can spend sometimes an entire 50inute class on five lines, right? And it's not because,
Oh, it's Aristotle and his his note style writing is poopy, you know, it's nothing like that. It's because it's somebody somebody um like the author of the work on the great poetesses the Bakic poetesses um starts oh god Lyron the great work by Lyafron the Alexandra or whatever you want to call it that's about a prophetic bakic priestess right Cassandra it's about her it's her words that come out. And I swear to you people, I swear to you, you cannot spend less than an hour on five
Lines of this thing. The entire work is that way. Why? Because like is making up vocabulary. He is creating words. Every fifth word is some god damn unknown. Never seen it. Doesn't exist anywhere in any other text. It's not just the hops. It's his own. He's made it. He's fine-tuned a word. But what do you have to do? You have to look at the word that he invented. You have to look at it in its context, which is ex way crazy esoteric and hard to understand,
Right? References that you don't know, people you don't know. It's nobody that's in this myth. Boom. He inserts a fake word, right? That's now a real word. And you have to figure out what that that new creation is. And the only way to do this, I stumble all the time. The only way to do this is to be able to think in that programmed,
Sophisticated, rational way that they're thinking. You have to think like like a fron in order to get to the place where his words are, right? And it's so difficult. and then you can pick up, you know, um, thus or somebody and just plow through it, you know, it's just a, right? It's just he's not making a lot of stuff up, but it's good historical analysis, you know what I mean? And and whatnot. So um realize that and it takes a lot of boldness for classical scholars
To step up because um to do this in front of a live audience to be able to read what we call site reading in front of a live audience that's isn't it Aina isn't that hugely intimidating? Yeah. And you know, while you were talking, well, it's not entirely connected, but just to give an idea to the people listening, it's for anyone learning a foreign language. When I learned English, when I was taught Spanish, the teachers were saying, well, you need to think like an English speaker. You need
To think like a Spanish speaker. So, it's not just to do the direct translation. You need to live in this world to understand the pragmatics of how this language functions and what it creates. So it's it's to get into the mentality first and then understand because you cannot understand if they you don't see the context around the text. That's what I was thinking while you were talking. The more >> very connected, but >> the more souls that you can absorb, the more of those ancient sources you read,
The more you become a part of that world. And it it that's exact the way you described it is exactly how the translator's life kind of progresses. You become more of a native be well you see how these terms are used. You know what they do? You know, you know how they refer to the bodily waste products now. You know how they look at them. They don't quite look at them like we do, right? Um you're going to have to get into this world that's a little bit
Different. And um the the one thing that I like is is parthonos, right? You talk about the virgin. You talk about the virgin on the hill. What is the parthonon and what is all the ver what the hell is a virgin? We can't even translate virgin properly. We can't even translate a virgin. I'm seeing virgins here that in the text it's an age group, right? Has it's not has nothing to do with your the status of your highman, right? Which by by the way Greek word,
Right? It's a Greek word. I'll give them that. Right? But the point is the more you see >> what a virgin is, the more you see what something very basic and simple like you'd think something like sweat would be simple. I can't tell you how many times I've been reading in physicians about sweat and about how it did you know they view it as a pharmacological product just like a milk that you would take from the opium poppy. Oh my god. >> I know. And >> yes,
>> We want to find out about that. But now it's said it's in the air. >> No, it's you produce it yourself, too. And when the devil tries to attract Eve, he uses his own sweat. It's not illogical. It is an ingredient in aphrodesiacs,
Right? I mean, if you think of it, what is it? Is are they trying to use the pherommones or something in the in the sweat? I mean, we don't do this kind of thing, right? So, and we don't have icor either, right? We have blood. >> They survived until medieval times. recipes and witches. Uh, yeah, absolutely. The sweat of a dragon. I mean, in [clears throat] in tales and folk stories. Yeah, you're right.
[laughter]
>> Don't you love it, Bruno? You wanted to ask something and uh I've interrupted. What was the question you were going to ask? >> No. Um I just was fascinated uh fascinated listening to your conversation because this was the whole point of it I guess like for you to because it's it's also an experiment we're doing which is like you just met each other. So there is topics that we you know that's that's the way we didn't prepare anything which is we have two um expert talking about What we are inquiring as amateurs >> one expert and one panel
[laughter]
>> Sorry >> and um so yes um well I we are approaching the three hours with Aina so Aina thank you very >> [laughter] >> And but I would like to make a question that that I think I'm going to ask all the time. I asked I'm on this like 10 times but all the time we get uh the same but a bit more with it. um which is about this concept name
God or we don't know actually that's what I'm getting that we don't know what bakus is so as um last idea for for or la one of the last ideas um can we approach to this I know this is not in the overview Aina but just like a spontaneous question about who is Bakus or what is this idea of Bakus not in Roman times like before where the word comes from >> and can I just ask why you've talked about that multiple times why has that come up sorry but you start your
Question like that and I was like I was expecting something different I don't know but can I please get an explanation on that and why ammon has different approaches.
So with with different even in the Elenistic collective that that was the way that I connect with Aina. uh I asked uh multiple persons um because we were being invited to lectures and and this this other person I was an expert on arts classical arts and all of this. So to all of them who have been asking we have been we have been tracking this bakus because I get the the the most answers that I get all the time. It's like well this is the god of wine
Of the Romans and so when but not all the time like let's say um when we track but let's say broman times you repeat this not the same time frame isn't it and we we have the the bakai or the backanss so we can infere as amateurs even not u asking somebody like yourself um that the word
Bakus is older than Roman times and it seems to be also a concept that is to become bak or the word that you you mentioned before ammon I don't know how to pronounce it >> yeah because it was an adjective to describe yus in that sense that's what you mean that it's way before Roman time >> okay I don't well I don't know so Well, in this idea that I just gave, I'm not saying any affirmations, just uh what is the inquiry we're doing on my side uh on our side? So, uh uh what do you think
About uh this old mess uh that I just gave you as a question mess? Sorry. >> I think >> I'm on first. [clears throat] Yeah. Want to hear what? Let me go let me go first because I'm going to throw out something that's different but I think it's going to answer the question and then you can proceed mathematically to do it the right way. Um
The uh two things that you talked about you know Uripides and then later a Roman Bacus right um what do the two have in common? Bakus is the power that's coming into the city to disrupt things, right? It's going to cause problems and it's going to cause people to do things that are out of their normal daily activities. What are these things? The the women are going to go up into the mountains and they're going to be performing rights. And there are murders that are associated with We have accounts of women coming into towns and taking the children. Like, what? What the hell,
Man? It looks like they're taking kids captive >> on their house, >> right? Right. They're causing And these are women who are free and slaves, right? We see that in the same situation in in the Greekeaking world that we do in the Latin world. The Romans come right up against it with a bachic group of women who create a conspiracy. they go out and arrest them and kill them. And one of the things that Libby tells us, one of the reasons they um took them uh that they arrested them was based on the drugs that they had that were used
In Bak ritual. That's in that's in our historians. So the the similarity if you want to know what bakilwo I am bak what that means because that's how they're translated in the LSJ to act in a bak way right um when you enter that bakic state whether it's in um thieves or whether you know whether wherever it is it doesn't matter where it is wherever it is you're going to end up with a disruption of the government you're going to end up with some kind of idea
That people whether they're free or slave have the obligation to go do these rights. And it's not just anybody, right? It's everybody from slaves up to the the people who are ruling, right? The rulership, all right? All of the cast of prophets, those people, right? So I think that to bo to become bak I don't know what it means but I can see that it always ends up in some kind of conflict like some you know war kind of situation is that why our longest epic
On bacus by known is that why it's about this massive war between the Greekeaking world and the Indian world is that why right who we call Indians because of the Greek Right. I mean, it's it's it's weird. It's like um the influence the influence of the culture that comes from mother Greek is is dominating um the world. I mean it's it's weird. Okay, that was my answer. >> No, but it's very interesting that you mentioned the conflict uh because yeah, conflict can be in many contexts. So in that sense where we have a well-governed
City state and then we have the bakik bakik um festivals al almost called them festivals that occur and the absolute cow. So this is a contradiction, a conflict between order and lack of order. And that is in ancient Greece at least, correct me if I'm wrong, is connected directly to uh god Donus. And we have many other festivals connected to him. So is that disruption is that um um yeah that that disruption in order um that of course yeah it survived as a concept as you said in in Latin as well
But yeah it doesn't come from Latin we already have uh back bak um right way before >> right right exactly I'm sorry yes perfect I guess that's was what my my question was going like Oh, I agree. >> I don't know. It's a fascination with time frames. I don't know why, but it gives you a bit of >> order. I think what Aina just said, >> I interrupt you. I'm sorry. I think what just said is so important. It's so important because remember Bruno, we were talking about how the theater is purging the population. If you don't
Bring in Dionis, you get in order to purge your population, you get a bachic reaction. you get a you get a some kind of violent bic um ecstasy that takes things over. It's almost like, okay, you can do this naturally and you can you can set up this orchestra, right? You can set up um so that the people while the priest of Dianisis is sitting there right in the middle of everybody can experience this purggation. Is that what it means to be bachic? Is that what? And and the Romans
Just, you know, got to a point where that phenomenon, that natural phenomenon of that bachic revolt kicks in. When you're not bringing that dioniac purification through theater or through whatever venue, medium, then um you're going to get a bachic
Um kickback. The only the reason I'm really excited about saying this is because they have this thing called um third time. So that your bak third time. So um one of the big Bak festivals is every third year, right? It's every third. Why are they doing the oracle switches from an appalonian oracle to a bachic oracle? And it just makes me think, is it something? Is there some kind of sacred, you know, physics, math going on here? I mean,
The center we're trying to figure out what is it to become bak, right? And you mention the theaters and all of a sudden you realize, oh god, it is religion, medicine, it is government, it is the same thing. What if we've been looking at >> what you said before? Yeah, absolutely. It's connected. Sorry I interrupted you, but it's exactly the essence of the of what you we talked about before, medicine and theater and religion,
Religious practices today. What are they today? What were they back then? So it's really the root of what you're saying 100%.
>> Okay. So um so we know that comes from before um Roman times. Okay. Dionis and in text like in evidence um
Can we trace this back like to bronze age even like this baky idea? I would say I would say because it's in uh linear B, right? You've got Donus, right? Dionis, you've got that in linear B already. So, um uh I would say the practice itself, the purggation itself has to be at least as old as you see the you know the entrance of the god. Maybe it was maybe it was there were variations of the practice like why is Aina why is it that Heracles
Has this these sacred temples that he's practicing something in where um media is the only one allowed where we have sources that say media is the only one allowed into the actual observation of the right
We we have almost from the beginning the late Bronze Age, we have corruptions of mysteries. We have like alterations or or like you know little offshoots of mysteries. And I don't think we we really understand if this is the world um the masonian world that is really you know it's the oldest Greek that we've got right it's the oldest Greek that we've got and if it is still preserving the name itself Dionis um
[Sighs] I don't know >> goes way back yeah because it's not just mentioned uripides it's something a lot older as you said because because of what we have in the writings and there are many mysteries just to make a very general comment and I really like the project uh you're working on uh Bruno with your team because it looks into these kind of questions that are a lot broader than texts. You pose questions
That are really in the heart of the ancient Greek world. How do we get these ideas? Um, where do they come from? What were the people thinking about these ideas back then? Did they know that Dionisus was as old as at least the writings that include their name?
There are so many questions around that. So um that's why I I felt like it's a wonderful project and it's a great opportunity to be able to talk about these things with with Ammon and most of all it's great that you guys pose these questions um in in your project and I feel very lucky to have been invited today here and to have the opportunity to talk about these things and of course meet Ammon. That was like a great conversation and I hope we didn't I I'm
Not sure if we were in our own bubble, philological bubble or if things were actually understood because we got excited many times about things, but I hope I really hope they're understood by someone that has an interest, let's say, in philology and they want to learn more about it and get like an introduction into this world. I really hope things were understood and were not like except you the words. >> Well, thank you very much to to to to come here and talk with us. Um what you
Were just saying. Yeah, that's exactly um why we are on the side of our documentary that we are working on at least for we have been working for almost a year now and we are seeing like we have a a whole at least this whole year and um but we decided to make this site parallel project of this history inquiry that we talk from a quote that ammon set once I stole it and I put that on my [laughter] on on the name of the of this project
That the whole idea is that so we did four chapters four volumes with Ammon um introducing people from the beginning what phology is and we went into a a bunch of different topics and now this is an expansion of this idea that is like we are so grateful that both of you to be able to do this experiment and to have two persons that know what they are talking about um giving us even more points of view about all of these questions. That's why I repeat the question you know I I I we have been
Following Bakus since the beginning. So I keep doing it and all the time we get different stuff not different um I mean if I put a clip of everything about Bos makes sense. I will show for for both of you like we have different um ways that you can approach it but it's always pointing to somewhere and a figure is appearing. So that's why I I keep asking about this last question I just did to both of you and and Ammon thank you very much to come here again and Ammon is part of our project from the since the beginning. So, it's been like a
Key figure in in the whole stones and serpents um universe and now with you Aina is like is exactly what what what we wanted um to keep pushing this forward for not just experts
Uh hear about this. I mean it's it's amazing. We have a lot of people interested here in Chile now that before we started with this uh nobody was even watching anything of what we were doing but now with um congregation of Ammon's
Channel they are very into it they are studying uh the ancient Greek to go into the source and you know for you to see for yourself and um so that's where we're trying to push forward also with the project of stones and serpents. So, we are so grateful that both of you are here now. Thank you so much, Aina. >> It was a pleasure. It was a pleasure to meet you, Aina. And I'm going to mention you on Lady Babylon because I love it when I run into another dope head and you've se you've seen this stuff and the
Project that you're working on. Um, I think that's brilliant. I think it's absolutely brilliant and I'm honored to be able to interact with you like this. I'm Thank you. Thank you. And Bruno, well done, sir. Ryan, well done.
>> Thank you both again. >> [Music]