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20260729-Gods of War, Wolf Cults and lots of Drugs - History Is inquiry with Tom Billinge @WarYoga

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Um but those people specifically the ones that came across were the young men, the warriors [music] um often um on raids or trying to uh go [music] into new lands. And in the case of Europe, they actually arrived in Europe um probably about the same time or just after there was some kind of devastating plague of some description that actually wiped out quite a lot of the uh native population, particularly the men of the old Europeans. Um and then they mixed in with the old Europeans. Um

And so we ended up with a kind of hybrid groups of people in these different places from that Indo-European group. I believe that a lot of the mythology that comes through since those Indo-Uropeans essentially became the ruling class, the warrior class, which is the nobility and the roy the royalty of a very very very ancient Europe pre you know bronze basically bronze age copper age um that those myth those myths are the ones that basically became the European myths in this case the Greek myths but they're

From much older time and that over time layers just kind of get added to them until they become what we are familiar with as the canonical myths, but those myths are from a much older time and that you know for example the character of Heracles, he is certainly much older

Than the Greeks that he uh was brought into what would become Greece by the tribes that would become the Greek tribes that um he's basically part of almost every sort of variant Greek tribal mythology. Um, apart from the Athenians, he's not Ionian apparently. That's one of the interesting things. But he he's adopted by them later. Um, but that that mythology is is much much older and the concepts that are in it are much much older because they're also common. They have a lot in common with the mythology of uh, Avestan Iran and of Vadic India. So for example the dragon

Slayer myth you know in Greek mythology you have uh Zeus is a dragon slayer Apollon's a dragon slayer and Heracles is a dragon slayer they all have this concept of they destroy they they slay the dragon of chaos and put order over their cosmos but that's the same in the Vaders there's Indra does the same with Vitra the dragon there and then uh Ferodun in the uh Iranian mythology does the same thing there too. So there's this similar there's like you can see these almost identical threads that have

Just slightly changed to adapt to what would have become that culture and that area but they all come from the same source ultimately. Um so it's it's really interesting to me that there is something much much deeper that has manifested into uh what we consider to be this is a Greek myth or this is Iranian myth this is Indian myth or whatever but but ultimately those will derive from something much older. Mhm. Yes. We we have been encountering something like that also when we follow even the the knowledge of u medicine the what we will call medicine now um that

Have you heard about the the palasians. >> The pasians. Yeah. >> Yeah. So >> neighbors. >> Yes. >> Yeah. and also connected with with this tri I mean tribes that were mobile and were moving around like horse tribes um that were moving all over and and you can see how let's say in this case that I'm I'm I'm telling you how there is some uh

Because the Greeks themselves were say Greeks let's say Greeks but people that that are Greek speaking in the Greek speaking world. They were talking about this um these Palaskians and you can see how also something very much alike appears in Italy with Atruscan ideas. So it became like and you can see how the this was spreading around the north and kind of draping down to the to the Mediterranean when you following you are following the the rights let's say the cold and and and the practices with with the plant

Knowledge or even concoctions venoms all all of these pharmarmacaya concept >> oh for sure I mean there's a kind of interesting thread where um example India the uh uh doshes uh which are the sort of various forces earth and and air and water kind of heaviness lightness wetness moisten you know these these concepts that there's three doshes in India but apparently there used to be four and um they tie almost identically into um into the Greek concepts you know of the humors of Galen's humors there like so Indian

Medicine and ancient Greek Roman medicine has so much in common. It's it's you know almost hard if you took away the exact terminology and just put in the concept it would be almost impossible to determine which one was which. >> Exactly. So that's why these horse tribes kind of caught of course our attention like uh as they were mobile you cannot find temples because obviously you're not building temples if you are moving around >> but you can follow the the cult kind of thing you know what I mean like when you

Say the cult let's say we're saying everything like um >> what we will say medicine or practices or however you >> I mean that's basically What I'm trying to do with war yoga is I'm trying to look at that from the Marshall tradition. >> Okay. And >> basically the exact same thing. >> Yes. >> That exact idea trying to put it all together and trace it. >> That's amazing and that's fascinating actually. That's that's where I was I would love to go like as as I was giving

Giving you this um example of following let's say medicine or pharmarmacaya or drug knowledge um h how how do we see that in in in the Marshall concept or what what it means I guess like Marshall will mean comes from Mars >> yeah the yeah the Marshall metaphysical tradition Um

So these mobile warriors were exactly that they were warriors. They were their reason to exist is to fight. Um and the so if we step for a second into the in India they have the actual cast system and then obviously there's different class systems that went through ancient Europe as well but ultimately you have priests warriors and craftsmen and those are the three top groups in um all the cultures from Europe and uh India and Iran they have these concepts of right at the top are priests and warriors and So

At the earliest stage, priests and warriors are kind of almost interchangeable that they're the same thing that the warriors. So a king does the rights. The king is a warrior. The king in state rights, the king is in charge of the sacrifice. He's in charge of all these things. He is tied in intrinsically into the concept of the land.

But you've got this idea of the warrior class having to go and their entire function as we know from something like the B bagita for example is to fight. and that's that's their function and that doing their function is exactly what they have to do. um and that's outside of morality in some regards that you know those things kind of get suspended but in order to fulfill that function they have to go through several exercises like sort of spiritual exercises psychological exercises which is where I believe a lot of I mean so

Separate modern yoga first of all from ancient yoga they're two completely different things modern yoga is a 19th century construction um and ancient yoga was very different but I believe that the ancient yogic practices ultimately come from the warrior class having to get themselves psychologically prepared in order to be able to commit violence and have violence committed to them. That is something that is extremely difficult to do unless you have the preparation in order to do it. >> Probably probably related with initiation rights >> probably%.

>> Mhm. In fact, um the ancient concept is that you are not a member of your class or cast or whatever you want to call it until you've been initiated. Um that's where the idea of being twice born comes from. So that a warrior is or priest or whatever they're twice born. They are they're born once physically and then they're born again through the initiation. And that only once they've had that second birth can they be considered a man and can they be considered a member of their uh group.

>> Amazing. So we can see the parallelism with the with the initiation or the mystery rights in in >> is critical. Mhm. >> Um I see that actually through the Indo-Uropean tradition is the the common thread is actually something that I um I've explored quite deeply is the idea of the wolf cult. So the wolf is the toemic animal of the warrior. There's actually three toemic animals. The wolf, the bear, and the boar in in European tradition, but the wolf specifically is very much tied in with the youth warrior

Band, the Aphibi. Um and obviously you've got things like the Roman lupacalia where the youths have to do wolf rights. Um there's wolf rights in India with the uh vatas. There's the Iranians have wolf rights. And so the wolf is the symbol of the warrior because it is swift. It is a daytime hunter. It actually hunts during the dawn and the dusk. It's what they call kpuscular. So it actually doesn't hunt at night. It hunts in light when the light's strongest. Dawn and dusk. Um it

Is uh it works as a group. So it it functions because it works together as a group just like a band of warriors. Uh it's considered to be invisible or extremely swift. Um and that's where you get for example the Germanic berserker traditions where they actually wear the wolf skin. You know the Roman uh leaders of certain Roman units would wear the wolf pelt over their armor. So this wolf cult and there's actually a some evidence in Russia it's called like Krasna Marco something like that my

Don't exact it's not exactly right but it's Kranom Marco where they were doing a dog/wolf ripe for the young men the young warriors which they would probably have to go and sacrifice a wolf their own wolf maybe that they raised or dog and then they would take on and the presumption of the reconstruction is that they then take on that power and become the kind of wolf man. And that's where a lot of our werewolf myth comes from. The idea of the manwolf because werewolf just means manwolf. There's a Greek mythology about it where uh for example in uh Mount Lyon where there's a

Very famous werewolf story but ultimately the the men there would um go to the sanctuary of Zeus Lyos which means wolfish Zeus. They would um do a right in secret in this forbidden area and some of them would have to become a wolf and go off into nature for a while uh and then return after a few years as me and become men again. And so they have become the werewolf, the wolf man, the man who can be a wolf but also be a member of society. because those two

Things, you know, being out in the wild and being a savage and being in society, they don't necessarily um uh live together well. And so you have to somehow balance those two things and that some people could never come back to society. But that ultimately is this idea of the wolf initiation that the young men a certain age and you can see it in the Spartan uh ro you can see it in the Athenian aphibia. They would have to go out into the wild essentially as wolves as young wolves

Live on the edge of society fight against enemies that they meet survive for themselves with just like a knife and a spear and not much else in small groups. And then after they've done that for a couple of years, that's their part of their initiation finished. And then they can come back into societ so society and become men. And so this wolf theme, I've just found it everywhere. see the European diaspora >> and and probably also if if one person will try to find references to pharmarmacaya being used on it

Probably also you will find some like meaning that always in this initiation rights as we are going in as we have been researching you will find that you will use specific stuff or drink specific if it drinks or you know that you might see it now as okay they're using some drugs but yeah I mean uh it's the use of nature kind of thing so >> but I mean all drug usage was ritual. >> Mhm. >> You know I mean there wasn't the same sort of recreational ideas of drugs that drugs had they used drugs for a specific

Purpose. >> Exactly. And always to try to um do something that will give something to the person, >> right? Usually to kind of thin the veil, you know, to make that barrier between worlds go thinner or disappear for that time so they can see into the another world, you know. Um >> definitely that I mean the Elucinian mysteries with the Kikon are, you know, they developed into what they became, but they they come from the similar idea. I mean it's seeing the afterlife and seeing um what awaits you, you know,

And that comes from the Kikon, which again is somewhat no one really knows exactly what it is, but it was basically a drink that had some hallucinogenic property, especially after some days of fasting. Uh they drink that and then do nocturnal rights within the Telisterion, which is completely closed off. Um so yeah, absolutely. We have been we have been diving deep on on on those uh on those mysteries those mystery rights. >> Yeah. I mean, but we we went to like the that's the Elusinian mystery will be

Like the most um [clears throat] let's say modern one we we found after like but it comes if you are tracing back the mysteries of course >> it's older >> and and >> I mean the mysteries of Samothrai are very interesting too um

About those >> you're hitting the spots Hyperoreia is about those things. So that's my that's my uh my work on that was with was return hyperoreia. >> Oh, amazing. Well, we we'll definitely read them all cuz cuz >> I don't try to plug my work, but that's exactly that's

The mysteries. >> I mean, I must say this is the first time we talk and and you just hit like two of the specifics that we are actually we were physically recording on. So like Elucinian in Leos Samotrai, you know. Yeah. I mean >> Samothrai special. >> I've I've been there sitting at that site >> and there's this there's a very famous there's a green um stone like the whole site's got lot of green stone but there's this green load stone basically magnetic stone and it's huge and it sits

Right at a certain point of the site which is actually much older than all of the buildings around it because the buildings are much later antiquity. the sight's like infinitely more ancient and this load stone is uh directed towards

Um Draco which was the pole star thousands of years ago. So it's like literally the site is aligned to something that used to be the pole of our solar system but not for thousands of years. So it's it's like f that site is something else. There's like a an energy there for one of a better word. There's something there, you know, like if you go and visit, you can't help but notice it. That's why you get people sitting around like that look like normal tourists, but you see they're

Almost compelled to sit and meditate or sit in quiet and and feel something. There's something about that place. >> Yeah. And could you be I mean you when you were there, you were there for a couple of days for for >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean. We all know what you mean. I mean, we were there like for almost two weeks. >> Oh, wow. >> So, and we were living in the north of the island in a forest in the middle of it. That connection we had there.

Nuts for a couple of of days. We were like all over the >> There's ancient forces there. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, Tom. So

Sorry, keeping with the outline which is difficult for me always. That's why I have >> Okay, no problem. I'm not very good at keeping out. [laughter] >> So um should we go? Well, first it's amazing that uh there's a lot of connection in your research with what we were doing. uh I just hit with with with with this book and now I understand for everything you are saying to us that uh this was a great idea to contact it. Um

>> Um so if we keep following this this uh Marshall ideas um and we go a bit um into the future times taking it from from this um origins that seems to be that there were some uh mobile

Tribes that connected and and and different spots cuz Yes, >> you'll say India and I guess um as you were taking the idea of east and west. >> Yeah, >> we can actually if you we see it in in a map will be on the middle of it. So probably >> things started to happen to the west and also to the east. >> Yeah. >> And and have you as you have been living in the east and you are from the west and >> Yeah. Have you been seeing these uh

Similarities like after you thought that this might be when you were saying to us that once you come back to the west after living in the east and you will say that um you can find this same similarities even as far as going into the actual east let's say Chinese culture and all of this Asia idea of the marshall um yeah concept. Yes. Um yeah, I basically found that uh

The same thing didn't exist in Europe ultimately that exists in hij um is just >> covered in layers of things. >> And would you say that they have a canon origin? >> So some parts maybe uh and some parts no I think

So there's here's the interesting [clears throat] idea. So both areas of course human beings fight each other you know it's human nature right even if you're completely unconnected in any way you'll find that like wrestling or hitting each other is common to humanity we we've always liked to do that. Um and warfare of course is um but this spiritual element to it which of course is a very natural thing because um in traditional world and traditional world view across all sorts of cultures um what happens on the material plane is a manifestation of what happens on the spiritual plane that you know that um as

Above so below as the hermetic tradition would say you know so that that things that that happen in materiality are just expressions of things happening at a sort of deeper level. So the idea of having for one of better words spirituality and uh physicality of martial arts as one thing is a very natural concept but there's certain

Things that are clearly connected. Um so for example um and especially especially to India being a sort of crux point actually um because that was a point of exchange between east and west. So

Fighting in an earthn pit, um doing so for competition, doing so without weapons, uh and uh doing so for honor and for honor for the gods and uh in order to prove yourself the best, i.e. the one that is essentially the substitute for the sacrifice because uh this concept of the of martial arts as a sacrifice to the gods and the victor being the substitute of the sacrificial victim, the one that's chosen uh by the gods. These are concepts that you find across from India all the way to Europe.

Um the Greeks have the most profound expression of that uh ultimately because it just was I guess very very much within the nature of the culture that developed there this idea of the aon the struggle um which is uh something that remains today in Greece agonistic society as they call it. Um but there's certain concepts and certain threads that are found across the board. And so what's very interesting as well is if you're looking at timelines, so the oldest martial art quote unquote

Combat sport, a complete combat sport, if you exclude wrestling and you exclude boxing, but like in terms of a martial art where you actually have all striking, all grappling uh is ancient Greek pancraton. It's predates pretty much everything else that exists across the world in especially because it's a complex ball system which involves all elements of combat.

Now that develops in Greece and then while Alexander the Great himself was not known to be a practitioner of the art, he brought his soldiers with him who were and everywhere he went he set up a uh gymnasium and a palestra

Wrestling school. So every single one of the cities that he set up has a palestra has has that and the furthest one is deep into Grecoactria in a place called Iicanum on the edge of Afghanistan what's modern Afghanistan and they have a pestri there from Alexander the Great's time from his successors actually I believe that point right there intersects with India and India had a martial tradition but there is plentiful evidence from what I've putting together and from my work that those while they also come

From a common a ancient ancient origin you know these Indo-Uropean people they also cross-pollinate at certain points and that cross-pollination there where there's the exchange between the Macedonian Greeks and the Greeks generally and the Indians becomes a sort of interesting little crux little kind of like hub of something but What's really fascinating and of course this is all kind of pie in the sky if you know what I if in some regards because it's very difficult to prove any of this stuff but the Chinese kung fu

Tradition of Shaolin for example is said to come from Bodhama and Bodhid Dharma is an Indian monk who comes across from India and he's actually while they say in some texts he's south Indian or he's Indian the Chinese texts describe him as a blue-eyed barbarian And they use a phrase that means he could even be Iranian or northern Indian. It's difficult to kind of exactly pinpoint from the Chinese language because they use this language for that entire area. But he's described being this blue-eyed barbarian that comes across from India

And brings uh Buddhism which becomes Chan or Zen Buddhism but also the martial arts. And so while that isn't evidence in itself, there's an interesting little kind of oral tradition and suggestion that something was brought over from that point. And bodh dharma of course is from what the sixth century or something that may I'm I'm maybe slightly off on that date, but it's like

8 Or 900 years after Alexander was in that area, you know. So there's like there's interesting threads that certain things. >> Okay. Okay. So you said you said uh six about you the AD. >> Yeah. So yeah, Bod Dharma is in the 80s and um Alexander is there in 300 >> BC >> whatever BC. >> Yeah. >> There's like basically about 900 years. >> Mhm. >> Um >> very interesting. >> It is interesting. >> Mhm. And uh and and Yeah. Well, that the fact that um even if you are studying um

Well in my case um because I was doing martial arts but when I was a kid more like um kickboxing that kind of idea and then I went into um to the traditional shotgun school which is Japanese and well Kinwan in in in his um Genesis I guess. But yeah, I found this connection with China and then with >> India, which is crazy. >> It's why it's very interesting because I mean obviously there must be some kind of martial tradition there already. But the fact that it could infect and and sort of have a conversation with something from somewhere else

Means that information from the west absolutely could have kind of made its way in. >> Yeah. >> And and vice versa. >> Mhm. and he and he got different readings because obviously anyways it's

You can see the parallels >> but at the same time you can see the differences like uh if you what was the word of um the the Greeks had the palestra how you >> pestra palstra wrestling school >> that will be like a dojo I guess >> correct I mean the palestra is very interesting because again just like in Asian tradition um if you went to the palestra the Himnazion. Um that ultimately you okay you learned wrestling, you learned boxing and pancration maybe, right? But you also

Learned philosophy, you also learned music, you learned art, you learned culture, you learned debate, you learned how to use this your mouth as well as how to use your hand, how to use your brain, you know, and it's that um Plato talks about it, but he puts it in Socrates's words in his make Socrates say it. But ultimately the idea that um the athlete alone or the warrior is too much of a thug and the philosopher alone is a thinker and a weak man. Actually what

You really need is to have the combination of the both to make the perfect citizen a philosopher athlete. Somebody who is both skilled in combat, fighting, arts and physicality and some at the same time skilled in culture, thought and the arts. That one or the other alone is not good enough. You need both to be complete. And so that's something you see as well in a lot of traditional Asian martial arts. This idea of the of yin and yang, you know, that you you can't just be a fighter because that's insufficient. You

Have to be a thinker. You have to be cultured. You have to understand certain culture elements otherwise you're never going to be complete. >> That's amazing. And um actually yesterday uh I was in a conversation because there was uh exams in the dojo. So well you know like in this kind of Japanese idea you'll have the well actually it's very common in through martial arts that you get your degrees and your belts and everything. So it was a bunch of people doing it and um and after we went for dinner so we were talking with the with the person who is

The chairman here in Chile which is the person that will give you the grades I mean the yeah the the belts let's say and and we were talking about the competition um well in this case WKF in karate the world karate federation which is like sports completely sports yeah >> which are amazing athletes They move like freaking it's just amazing. I've seen some competition. >> Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. >> They are athletes but they will train in the actual dojo. They will not train the the let's say in a traditional one you

Will have the the very specific way of the things you are training. And also you have a way of behavior on it a way of you know which it maintains a bit. It's not the same, I'm absolutely sure, as in the old times, but you get a bit of everything that the martial art wants to give you, not just the competition part of it or not just the fighting part of it. And and that can be also very kind of tricky because at the same time,

>> It should work also as a fighting uh system, I guess, >> right? But so so in modern times um how difficult you see or or or what you've seen in in in the world like um how far away from the idea of the complete development of a person uh we are now >> we've come far from it. I mean it's something that I kind of hope in some ways I can help instill back into the west because um we've lost that like if you look at so I I I train Brazilian

Jiu-jitsu um and I also train Muay Thai and so from Muay Thai there is a cultural background there is a kind of idea of of uh making sure that you fit in with the originally the five Buddhist precepts you know you shouldn't kill, you shouldn't steal, you shouldn't lie. You know, these kind of moral and ethical concepts that go with traditional Muay Thai with with Muay Thai in general. Um but if you come to the west, those things don't necessarily get transmitted along with um the fighting side. And then you look

At modern jiu-jitsu, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and then in America, what's sort of just generally kind of become jiu-jitsu they call it these days, where it's just a kind of modern style of noi jiu-jitsu particularly. And you know, that's the style I predominantly train these days myself. Um, that has almost

No code of conduct. It has almost no culture deeper culture that goes with it. The culture that has developed in jiu-jitsu is kind of asinine. It's >> Hello crew. Greetings from the road. I just wanted to communicate that we just opened our stones and serpents patron finers. We are now constantly uploading different audio visual materials. Some are free and some are not. We are sharing SNS behind the scenes, raw footage of their current Eastern expedition, official soundtracks, and even collections of future productions like shortcuts and documentaries.

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Appreciate your support. Thank you all and again greetings from the crew. uh [snorts] irreverent, which can be fun, you know, don't get me wrong, going into a like so I I'm from a 10th planet gym is my main is my gym and um 10th planet is very chill. It's very relaxed. It's like uh that's the style of the gym. And it's it's nice, you know, that you haven't got some of those structures sometimes, but at the same time, there's something kind of missing from a gym

That doesn't have something deeper to it, you know? Um, it's one of the reasons why I like teaching the kids classes, for example, for Muay Thai, because I'm able to teach that younger generation something more than just here's how you fight. I try to at the same time as doing that, instill some sort of moral ideas or concepts, things that they can think about. I don't try and kind of push my opinions on them particularly, but I try and give them something good that they can take into life with the martial arts

Because martial arts aren't just about fighting. Martial arts are about how you approach life. It's about your uh morality and psychology. Um, it's about how you can walk through the world and be able to live a good life. I think that's the real power of martial arts more than the fighting side of things is the the kind of uh inner power you know Chinese martial arts and Chinese ideas of kind of you know inner alchemy and um you know naan as they call it you know

Like these ideas that you've there's a transformation that happens inside as well as on the outside um it is something that's missing especially in the west especially in modern martial arts like tell me what is the philosophy of MMA tell me what is the philosophy of modern jiujitsu like I don't think anybody can because I don't think it exists you know but tell me um some of the philosophies from traditional Asian martial arts if you're somebody who practices those you can tell me some philosophical ideas you

Can tell me about tauism or Buddhism or some of the kind of concepts that go along with it but you can't tell me that about modern MMA which is the kind of fundamental defining western martial art at this point in time there's no morality. It's just here's how to fight. Here's how to beat someone in a fight and that's that. Which fine, that is what it is in itself. But I feel like if you're going into it to try and pick up something of a martial art in a complete way, you will find it certainly

Lacking in uh the other side of that equation in the spirituality and and philosophical morality.

>> Yes, definitely. And at the same time I guess it's not easy to find that way like cuz obviously you cannot replicate what you will like completely no used to happen you know >> cuz >> no you have to it has to has to kind of grow organically too you know >> and it's just not happen. >> Mhm. Okay. Yeah. >> Because it's rootless. Yes. >> The thing about these traditional martial arts is they're rooted. Whereas MMA is not rooted. It's a mix of all things.

>> Ah, okay. Okay. Okay. I get what you're going. Yes. Yes. And and also it was a part of the educational system since very very early age. I guess also like um these ideas were like as you were saying in the Greek side they were uh being educated in the whole dimensions of person in the >> dojo the idea of >> the Spartan go

So up until the age of seven the boy because it's if we talk about it's about men here in terms of the warriors traditionally it was males okay So women were raised by women and boys were raised by women until they were about 7 years old. From the age of 7 years old, they exit the world of women and enter the world of men. That means boys are then raised by men and that's something that isn't true today in society. Like you know obviously men have a role but like the role of the me of men raising

Boys has been incredibly diminished. I mean, the school system is um predominantly female in the United States and in Europe. Um it's mostly female teachers, which is fine. It is what it is, but it isn't the men raising those boys. And so what would happen is at the age of seven, the boys go into the world of men. From that age until they're about 17, they are educated about how to be men in society. Yeah. that involves the physicality, the philosophy, the spirituality, these things we're talking about about the gimmnazion.

After 17 or at 17, they go through their trial, which is like I was saying with the wolf cult, for example, they have to go off into nature. They have to go and go through something very hard that changes them. It tests all the things they've learned. They have to put it into practice. They'd have to survive and live outside of society and actually make that work for themselves. And then after a couple of years there, they come back into society and their initiation is completed. And then they become

Members of society. Like this is the ancient system. And that's something that is absolutely non-existent at this point. We don't have initiations for either men or women because women also had initiations as in like at Browron in Greece. Bravron, Bravona it's called near Athens which was where the girls were initiated into the cult of Artameis you know so there are male and female initiations in antiquity but in the modern world we don't have those initiations so we don't have that education in how to be an adult member of society and a complete

Adult member of society >> yes and that was part of um a conversation we had also last time and about the the role of of men and women cuz uh as we were going tracing um the oracles obviously obviously you you you will encounter yourself with the world of women which you you don't talk too much and people don't know too much like let's say the oracles were being trained since zero years

And they were being trained in physics stuff like they were completely fit. Us they were being trained in the use of different um pharmarmacayas and because the oracles will were is just women and they were very educated and also nobody will um challenge

Anything that the oracle will say ultimately. So well I mean because uh female is the is the channel of the gods the channel of nature like that that the role of that basically an oracle has to be a woman because a woman is the only person who can channel the gods in that way >> in traditional society and obviously even even now I mean women are more in tune with nature they're more in tune with certain things you know the idea that we have of women's intuition Right?

They say it, oh, it's women's intuition. It's because there is an intuitive element within women that is not the same as the one that's inside men, you know, that we don't we maybe men are a little bit more blind to certain things, you know. >> Yes. And why do I bring this up? because um I think it's very important when we try to have a a a picture of like ancient times and when we talk about education focuses let's say as we talk about this part of of of the marshall

Way um I think it's important to understand that their society also had uh the understanding of the feminine side in this other kind of of way which it was actually last word will be the oracle not even the king >> in terms of in terms of the spiritual world. Yeah. I mean like so um there's the concept in Indian tradition of Shiva and Shakti that and inside the man is this female energy. The shakti is this power. It's this immense boundless power but it's female. It's uh personified by a goddess. And if you look again into

The Greek side of things, who is the patron of warriors? It's not Aries. Aries is the god of war. Athena is the god of warriors, goddess of warriors. It's she's feminine. It's a feminine power. You know that is the >> and that gets manifested later into the idea of chivalry that these knights of medieval times dedicated it to uh a woman

You know that that and that's because that kind of power is traditionally always seen as being a feminine power or personified by female force >> and if you see let's say the other side and you see Apollo which will be a musician and a very beautiful musician It will not be like obviously as all gods of ancient Greece uh very fit

Looking but as you were saying um Athena will be the the warrior um yeah energy and justice. >> Yes, she is. She's she's the she's the actually the complete warrior because like we said Aries or Aries he's um just this force of war this force of violence but there's no um depth to it beyond that whereas Athena is strategy cleverness

Um cunning um that's why if you look at something like the Odyssey yeah Adysius is she's by Adysius's side because Adysius personifies those same ideas of cleverness, you know, of of trickery, of having to be smart, of not just being a blunt force trauma that you have to be, you know, smart about things and have more than one dimension to you as a warrior that you have to be multi-dimensional. And so that is Athena really. Ultimately, she's she I mean, she's born from Zeus's head, you know,

She's from the brain. She's from the mind of the father of gods and men, as he's called in ancient in ancient times, you know. So she's she's a very potent force and she is specifically

Associated only with men pretty much and only with warrior and mostly with warriors craftsmen too to some degree because they use cleverness as well but she is a warrior goddess for the men.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. because um this is you can um in fear like a very um um accurate I mean and not obvious uh right away idea of creating these archetypes or or or you know it's like um if you dive into it you will find this subt subtleties that you were just saying which obviously is >> ancient world is complex people like to try and simplify things like humanity is complex, right? And so all things have a level of complexity. and they had an incredibly sophisticated and developed

Um spirituality, philosophy and culture. Um that that really we feel like at this point in time being modern people, being moderns is that oh we we figured it all out and that you know we've come out of this sort of primitive uh nature into these amazing developed people that we are today. But ultimately, I mean, I think in many ways we've devolved, you know, we've we've lost uh a lot of complexity and and and powerful ideas and we've lost them to something more simplistic and more black

And white, you know, that that there's something actually more profound and deep in antiquity and some things that aren't. you know, I mean, of course, different the way it works, but like we we've actually lost a lot rather than we've gained, but we've lost and we've lost actually some things that are very important, you know, for all our technological advances. We've we've lost some of our humanity. >> Mhm. And the and the idea of self-development in in a in an integral integral way or more

When Yeah. as you you said um a word just been appearing which is like this idea of the materialism as not as a philosophical idea more like um everything of which is not of the intellect. It becomes absolutely detached from you or becomes

>> Um um something that is not part of your everyday chemistry let's say. >> Yeah. Right. Then it can be in the somewhere you know an idea that a religious idea even but will that will not be part of your >> chemistry every day you know which is can be part just in your in your intellect. Well, it's interesting, right? Because we have like these ideas, ancient ideas of like levels, you know, there's material plane, spiritual plane, and that that's actually reflected in, for example, in Buddhism with the sort

Of the different bodies, you know, of the Buddha, the three the three different bodies, the kayas, you know, the spiritual body, the physical body, the uh and then the ultimate body. you know, these ideas like this, I mean, those are reflections of what were considered the same way in in Europe and in, you know, in traditional society in general, that, you know, there's these different planes and that we're also kind of all functioning on all of them in different ways at different times. And that ultimately what's happened is is we've given so much weight to materiality and the material world that

We've kind of obscured these sort of higher elements, these higher versions of these things. So you know we're now even just the way we kind of value things. I mean look right now I mean how does how what is a human value now? Human value is measured mostly in terms of economics. That's a terrible measure of value ultimately. It's one specific measure, but it's like why is that one chosen? You know, like why are there not other ways to value a human being and a human

Life? But that that's not we we live in an age which in ancient times in the Indian tradition is the kaliuga or in the uh Greek times the dark age which is this hypermaterialistic

Age where order has become

Um disheveled and out of place. how respect and uh the understanding of how the world works and the connection between the spiritual, the divine and uh the earthly have become completely disconnected. And it's it's kind of like what's interesting is those concepts were there in antiquity that we're going we're going to be going through that. And here we are, you know, we have we've become very disconnected from higher ideas. We've become very disconnected from uh the spiritual plane. We've become very much rooted in this hypermaterialistic

Modern world where, you know, like I said, economic value is the absolute measure of everything, which is just I honestly think a pretty awful way of looking at the world. You know, that that everything has an a price tag of some description. And and I think that's just so crass and and low compared to, you know, the way that those things would have been looked at in in a different time.

Yes. Yes. and and seems like this this disconnection uh as you study um ancient times um well it it looks very evident and I guess that's why they called the which last for a bit the renaissance the renaissance like um something happened in between that was disconnecting a lot of things that were growing before let's say yeah growing isn't it And also this idea of everything which you don't see is not there. It doesn't exist in this in it doesn't it doesn't interact with you which

>> Right >> I mean you can you can see stuff happening with I mean I I had this great um analogy of Ammon the other day. He told me um well you cannot see eros but you can see eros

Effect. >> Yes. >> So is that real or is not real? It's happening right here or it's not happening right here. So >> right >> of course you can see like I mean it's happen you are feeling the the attraction or not >> but you are not seeing it. So this will be like what they will call the invisible >> and and and how they were trying to actually tap into it through initiations and >> correct correct I mean again even in Buddhism you know the idea of the material and immaterial planes you know

Like that you have different levels of existence and that there are both material planes immaterial planes worlds of form worlds of no form You know that these things are intangible. You can't grasp them and grab them, but you can feel them. You can experience things that you can't see. You can experience things that you can't take a hold of. >> Grasp. >> Exactly. And and and it will uh interact with you in your real world. Yeah. So

That's a very different view of saying okay once I'm dead I'm going to see yes not just that it's like why you are alive I guess that's why they had this idea of of being born again >> correct and and the idea that you know so someone who has transcended the material world so you know um some kind of holy man or something like that somebody who has had a realization and seen They're considered to have gone beyond time and space to see all existence unfold before them. To see

Past, present, future, all as one thing that you know the idea that eternity is now. This is eternity. This is immortality. This moment now. You know to be fully in that moment is and to be really fully in that moment and open to all that is before you both material immaterial that is eternity you know. So these ideas of time and space can kind of dissolve in traditional

Um concepts of of existence you know of being and becoming you know that that ultimately you can transcend these things and become what the Indians would have called the chakraartin the lord of the center of the wheel you know that you are see all of time and space from the center of the wheel that you're no longer kind of just on the edge of the wheel going through time in this sort of cycle that you're in the middle. You're kind of on the world axis and able to move throughout time and space as you

Will. You know these, you know, while these are kind of high concepts, in some ways you can as a regular human being sometimes feel those little touches of that where you'll feel the hand of something which is not there but there like you'll feel like that for a moment that time is sort of dissolved. that there is no past and present and future that there's just there is and that you know that the certain things manifest as it's just like this kind of feeling it's very

Difficult to kind of you know conceptualize that in a kind of um intellectual way. >> Yeah. >> You know >> Yeah. And I and I guess like those hard memories that you have uh let's say like everybody has like I remember that moment because in that moment was kind of different probably you tapped into you your a different way of perceiving what was going on and I guess this was the whole thing like the thing with time that the what's what we will call like the prestocratic um philosophers

We're talking all the time about this um this relationship with time and going back and forward in time in a cave and and try to explain it and and in a very scientific manner like that probably you

Will call it now uh well that religion and science and everything was interconnected obviously. >> Yeah. Correct. And the whole point of the of the initiation was for you to go and see for yourself and then be able to function in in society knowing and having this. So right >> I think it's absolutely >> I mean imagine we will have an an initiation like that like right now to everybody >> right I mean that's the idea right you don't know until you can experience it for yourself like you can only take

Other people's words but until you experience it and see it you can't understand it and so for example the elucinian mysteries right so throughout antiquity almost nothing was revealed about the mysteries. We have like almost nothing revealed. And like people can say, "Oh, well that's the because of the fear of the goddess or whatever and the injunction of like you will be destroyed if you you know you'll be punished for letting the mysteries out of the bag basically. But also the truth of the matter is is if you've experienced

Something at that deeper level, at that deeper psychological level, how on earth do you put that into words? How on earth can you transmit that? Like that's something that has to be experienced. It has to be felt and understood in a way that goes beyond the sort of you know intellectual concepts of things that you can't say well this happens then this happens then this happens because it was something that happened on a much deeper level to the initiate it they couldn't put it >> yes I know what you mean and and and even if you you will have a text like

The mythic liturgy where they will give you step by step you will say what [\\h__\\h] what the [\\h__\\h] is this man I mean what what and you will see what and you have to say what so yeah I mean uh I guess what you're if I'm understanding is like the mystery itself will keep as a mystery without even you trying

>> Right because the mystery remains a mystery apart from to those who've experienced it and understood it through direct experience >> yeah amazing man and um would you mind if I change the subject and give you just one straight question for >> shoot away [laughter]

>> Which you will I don't want to take too much time out of you Tom >> thank you that's >> but >> but uh this has been like amazing conversation >> way better than the outline >> and but I have this which is very important for the actual conversation which is like very straightforward what is pancraton

>> Ah pancraton >> pancraton I'm sorry >> pancraton is so sometimes people call it pancreasian um but the uh correct pronunciation is uh either pancration or pancratio. Um so uh pancraton is the name means all

Mastery. Uh sometimes it's translated as all powers but that's slightly wrong. I mean it's not wrong but it's like they're taking cats there to mean power whereas the actual root word there means the mastery of something. So pan is everything and catos

Part means the mastery of it. So it essentially is an ancient Greek combat sport which derives from the battlefield but is not necessarily used on the battlefield. Even though some ancient writers try to insinuate that it does but it wouldn't necessarily work on the battlefield cuz melee warfare is very different from single combat. But ultimately it derives from single combat monomia.

Um, and it is a empty-handed all-in fighting style that allows for basically all striking, knees, elbows, punches, different hand strikes, palm strikes, finger strikes, thumb strikes. Even there's evidence of um there are and all grappling like chokes, joint locks,

Cranks, any kind of joint manipulation. Um maybe some small joint manipulation was not allowed under certain rule sets like fingers for example um because there's specific prohibitions in writing about that but that didn't stop some people. There's famous guy called Sosatoss who was a finger bender. Um but so they um essentially it's very similar in many regards to modern MMA except it is um

Somewhat less restrictive. Um but did have a rule set including you know there was often there seems like groin strikes were not permitted and gouging and biting and those sorts of things that would be not permitted in modern combat sports were not permitted. It was a sport. I mean it there's only in the entire history of ancient Greek combat sports um through the ancient game circuits there are I believe eight recorded deaths of athletes and only two of those were pancratiastas. So I mean in a thousand-y year period only two

Recorded deaths. There may have been more but there two are actually at any of the significant gains. Um, so it must have had a fairly rigorous rule set because they're not there to kill each other. Even though some modern scholars will be like it was a fight to the death. You'll get these kind of these myths which are just not true. I mean just then it's not possible for them to be true otherwise you'd have a lot of recorded deaths and and no one would really do the sport. Um, so it was a sport that was performed um and you

Would win when one person gave up and they would either give up by tapping or by raising their finger in the air to the referee to the raiki the the rodbearer rod to beat them with. Um, and he would uh they'd indicate to the judge basically that they give up and that's how you'd win the fight. And so that is a sport that you can trace to at least 700 BC at least uh earlier like much

It's it's likely highly likely it's much earlier um and it developed and it was in use until uh at least the 4th century AD so 300 something AD and it probably died out at the same time is the games died out because it was intrinsically linked to games and the games died out because of two Christian emperors Theodosius I

Who banned the worship of pagan idols and pagan rights which meant that was the end of the games themselves because the games were all sacred games to gods and then his grandson Theodosius II who ordered the destruction of the temples. And so at that point ultimately that was the end of that sport. >> And um yeah, I was going to ask you because if as we were tracing

The the mystery rights also at the same at the same point it were it was actually also forbidden >> in the same 400s AD. And what's very interesting right there actually aside is that one of the greatest sources for the Lucinian mysteries is Clement of Alexandria. And Clement of Alexandria was a Christian bishop. But he before he was a Christian, he was a pagan because he was a convert and he actually experienced the mysteries. He he was an initiate of the mysteries. But even so, even when

Writing about it, there's something that stopped him short of really revealing too much. There's still something there in his psyche that's like he's still a little afraid to say really what's going on there. It's kind of interesting that even because it's again one of those things that the early Christian fathers are more pagan than modern pagans are

For example but they're more they still have that pagan one pag traditional ancient religion um still there is very much part of them even though they've converted to Christianity you know they still there's still there's still something there's still something that that stops him saying this is what happens like there's still a fear, there's still something that just holds him back. Kind of interesting. >> Yeah, absolutely. And and and and again how everything is connected in in in their culture >> like Yeah. I mean, as I was telling you,

We were going into a different topic, but now we are talking about this other topic which is was a big big part of the c whole culture. You can see how everything is >> part of the of one culture. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And twice >> and nowadays um because let's say here I not that I know I here we have you can train if you want um like Greco or Roman wrestling of course >> we have that here. My brother actually >> likes to trade that also. And um and but what about the pancrion? Because here

You will not find anything like that. you think as well find >> traditional pancrone almost anywhere um because it it's something that is basically lost but being it gets reconstructed by certain people. So one of my efforts has been trying to reconstruct it. Um there are others um in Italy there's actually several reconstruction groups um that are right in some ways and wrong in other ways in my opinion. Um but I'm sure they would say the same about me. Um and then in Greece there's a couple of people who

Are really very very good who I've trained with. Um but in Greece they have uh what's called batio athlema pancratium which is the modern neo pancration that they have. Um which is just really a modern construction from uh karate and judo ultimately. um they've just made their own they've made a martial art and called it pancration and you know not to try and ruffle feathers but you know there's a lot of incentive for you to have a pancration school because you get government funding whereas you don't get government

Funding for your karate school or your MMA although actually MMA just got recognized by the Greek government so there might be some funding now for that but um it was one of those things where in the 70s and 80s and ' 90s when they were kind of creating that um there may have been other incentives to do so and they you know sticking like ancient names on things that have no basis in historical

Uh evidence um is part and parcel of that to some degree. So you can find quite easily new pancration nail pancrion or athlema you know athletic pancratium which is the new style but you will struggle

Endlessly to try and find the original pancratium because it doesn't really exist. Um, I try to do my part to do my research and reconstruction which involves understanding the text, understanding artwork, having a good basis in some sort of training of understanding how to read archaeological evidence, how to read textual evidence. Um and then at the same time also having a background in combat sports which is uh something that's very rare to have all those those those two sides of that equation because uh archaeologists and academics often

Don't have the physical side and people who are martial artists don't necessarily have the uh academic side. Um so there's very few people who actually are able to bridge that. >> Oh I understand. But when you say try to reconstruct it, I guess it will be always through evidence through text I guess. >> Yeah. >> Uh text text beats artwork. >> Um but ultimately you try to take the fragments of text that remain and there's a few. Um and then you try to understand that, try and visualize that,

Try and marry that to artwork from ancient uh artwork. if it if it's available. Um if you can put those two things together, then it becomes a very powerful tool to understand. Um and then you

Then put that into a physical tested practice to see if that theory basically of yours holds water, if it would work, if it's something that you could actually do. >> Yeah. But I I can see I can see it happening. I mean, I've I've seen the material you do and in your Instagram, which you you always show a p a picture, an evidence or something and and you do the actual >> Yeah. Which makes sense when you have a bit of a background, you understand that, okay, the lock is going that way.

I mean, for you it will be so so easy to understand that >> is is is towards the joint of the shoulder or something like that, you know. >> Yeah. and and but another thing that I uh just comes to my mind is that I've been understanding that the the amount of Greek text we have now is such a vast amount of text that is not been translated yet. I mean the phologists are actively uh translating every day and the one that I'm working with. So

Probably if if if you go and and and actually try to find this kind of um um with specific words to find text, I'm sure probably some a lot more can be found maybe. I don't I'm not sure. >> No, absolutely. So So we have stuff that's in existence. Yes. And then also like some of the papyrii, you know, from um from Egypt, the oxarinkus um papyrus. So basically there's a whole cache of like

Papyrus texts and fragments that were found in the desert in the early 20th century and like they're still working through that I think. I mean there's thousands and thousands of them in little tiny fragments. That's where we have for example an old part of an old wrestling manual was found you know and so it it's again in sort of >> language so you have to interpret it and has but that was found >> and that has been translated >> has been already translated >> yeah that's been translated it's very

Short it's just like a small passage but like you know it was part of something bigger >> yeah I'm sure I mean they Greeks were writing everything >> and all of the wrestlers probably knew how to ride and sing and dance. And I mean a lot of the so in terms of the uh pancraton and boxing and wrestling a lot of the evidence you get is from um other texts things like philosophy because for example Plato as an example uh uses a lot of uh metaphor from the palestra from the wrestling school

Because he assumes that people who would be reading or or listening to his work would understand that because they are men who have gone through that training system. So it's easy to use a metaphor from wrestling because oh that's more understandable than me trying to do some other high concept. I'll use a wrestling thing. And it's for example one of the great sources is a guy called Felon of Alexandria. Now Felon was a helanized Jew. He was trying to put across Jewish concepts in Greek

For a Greek speakaking Jewish audience. But what he did was is he wrote his metaphors. A lot of them are about pancration, about wrestling, and they're about like the struggles, spiritual struggles or things like this. But he uses these things and and because of that we've preserved some very interesting techniques and other information all from his texts, you know, which have survived in quite astonishing volume actually. So you have to actually look quite far and wide. It's like if you're just looking for sporting [music] texts, there's not

Much. There's like >> I know what you mean >> and that's kind of really about it a bit of it in Galen. Um but you have to look further and you'll find it. >> Yeah.