77WABC Radio Dr DC Ammon Hillman 2023-10-17

Audio: https://wabcradio.com/episode/dr-dc-ammon-hillman-10-17-23/

Transcript

It's The Other Side of Midnight with Frank Marano.

Well, I've been looking forward to talking with Dr. D.C. Ammon-Hillman. He's an incredibly accomplished scholar. He is incredibly provocative. He has focused many years and a lot of hours of research on an area that, I'll be honest, I never really thought much about. It's proven to be controversial in general, including for him. Dr. Hillman is a scholar and an author who's written several books, including The Chemical Muse, Drug Use, and The Roots of Western Civilization. Dr. Hillman, thanks so much for joining me on the radio.

Hey, Frank, thank you so much for the invitation.

I'm glad we were able to make it work. Now, you're a very accomplished guy. You've got more degrees than most thermometers. How did you get into studying ancient pharmaceuticals?

Yeah, you know, long story short, a professor came to me and he said, hey, I know you do both sides of the fence. You do the science and you do the classics. Because I was studying Greek and Latin then.

He said, Hey, you know, there are all these ancient medical sources, nobody's translated. And so I started working on it and realized I had to build enough of a, couple of a, PhD program and a couple of masters, to be able to translate this stuff. And Frank, as soon as I started translating it, I realized, Oh my God, these people were huge into drugs everywhere. Drugs.

Well, since you talk about these people and being into drugs, let's talk about all these cultures. Ancient Greece, for instance, we think of them as people that gave us so many of the words that we use today. Really, the people that invented democracy as we know it. What do we know about ancient Greece and what they were doing in terms of drugs?

They were part of a tradition that had been developing pharmaceuticals since the Bronze Age.

So by the time you get to the classical Greeks, who were worshiping at Eleusis, and every year you've got people who come in and go through initiation, and these are brilliant people too. These are not hacks. This is Cicero going in and being initiated and saying, this was the most important event of my lifetime. This is that kind of religion that they're practicing after a thousand years of intense research.

with drugs, psychotropic drugs, and the big one right now are the snake venoms. Frank, they're using combinations of snake venoms to do things that, to be quite honest, I don't know if we can talk about them on your program. Well, when you say the big thing right now is snake venoms, are you talking about in the year 2023 or several thousand years ago? Yeah, no, I'm talking now because this is going to push the frontier.

You know, 10 years ago, people were saying, hey, nobody used drugs in antiquity. We just wouldn't do such a thing. I mean, my dissertation, which was on Roman pharmacy, I had to take out, I had to redact all the section on recreational drugs or anything that looked like a recreational drug. And it caused me a big deal research-wise and career-wise.

So what's funny is the gentleman who wrote the Bryn Mawr Classical Review of the Chemical Muse, he said, this Frenchman said, this book is the most dangerous book around and it should not be read at universities. Now he's writing a work about shamanism and the use of drugs because the academic community is catching up.

So when I say now, Frank, I mean now this year,

They've begun to see that these drugs are so widespread. Now, I need to push. Hey, look at the Venoms, guys.

their hormone analogs, look what they're doing. Oh, God, it's so fun.

Well, I want to come back to the present day in just a minute, just like Christopher Lloyd will go back to the future momentarily. But just going back to the ancient Greeks, for instance, and the ancient Romans, when you say they were on drugs, was the nature of the drugs that a lot of them were using, was that snake venom as well, or was it some other type of pharmaceutical?

Yeah, no, it's a whole blend of things and the venoms are one of them. You can buy North African viper venom in the Roman marketplace. People don't realize that. This is all about economy and trade, right? These are all items that are in their economy making money. You go to the drug markets, it's just the way it works. And so the drugs that they're using are plant and animal products but they've engineered them in a way that their pharmacy is what I call polypharmacy. They're working on dote and antidote.

So they have compounds, Frank, that they're combining just a host of different plant and animal substances in. And they've got all ways to get them into the body. The big one is fumigation. If you wanna fumigate somebody to make them insane, you can do so with a little bit of mandrake, a little bit of henbane and you can put someone into a psychotic state, why would you want to do that? Because you're putting them through an initiation. Don't worry, it's all for their well-being in the long run.

So the drugs are everywhere, especially within the sex rites. The drug's gotta be there.

So let's talk about this day and age, since you brought us back to the present day a couple of times. I know people that smoke marijuana. I know people that do cocaine. I know a lot of people that have experimented with things like heroin and even had a problem with heroin. I read all the time about drug overdoses related to things like fentanyl. I never hear about someone experimenting with snake venom. Where is this snake venom being used in the present day?

In the present day, no idea, Frank. I mean, I'm a guy who's straight up with you. No idea where it's being used now.

Maybe I'm confused. I thought you were saying they're using snake venom and things of that nature today.

Oh no, I'm sorry. I'm thinking ahead. I was talking about the area of research. So as classicists begin to understand that drugs were prevalent in the ancient world and they begin to examine it themselves, the next step they're going to make is to the compound snake drugs that are the communion drugs of the religions. This is why we've got Moses holding up the rod with the snake on it.

In the biblical story of Moses and the Burning Bush, God instructs Moses to throw his staff (or rod) on the ground, and it transforms into a snake. Moses, initially frightened, then grabs the snake by the tail, and it reverts back to a staff. This miracle is a sign to the Israelites that God has appeared to Moses. Later, the Israelites are afflicted with poisonous snakes, and God instructs Moses to create a bronze serpent on a pole, which would heal those who looked at it. See alabastron, Caduceus

Anybody who looks at it is healed, right? This is the part of the same Bronze Age mystery cult. I'm sorry, I should have clarified.

No, no, no. Maybe it's just my misunderstanding. But so the drugs, and that's exactly what I was going to ask. Some of the drugs in these ancient cultures, whether we're talking ancient Greece, ancient Rome, or ancient Judaism, as is in the case of Moses, they were often part of the worship services.

Correct. Correct. And as a matter of fact, the states of ecstasy that they're talking about, um, are always brought on by the use of some kind of compound. Whether they're fumigating you with it and you're inhaling it, or they also have a technique of applying it to the rectum with something, something called an alabastron. And, um, it's made fun of in antiquity. It's poked fun of in Aristophanes.

So it's a medical applicator and they, They apply it to the rectum. Well, this is part of the rites that they have that cause you to enter into death and resurrection. The whole idea is to bring you back so that you have an awareness of the cosmos that you didn't before.

In ancient Rome, were the compounds that they would use there different from what they would, say, use in ancient Greece or ancient Egypt?

Yeah. No, that's a, that's a wonderful question. In Rome, Rome is kind of like a magnet, drug-wise. So you can look at drug manuals by guys like Dioscorides, and you can see that within the Roman marketplace, you've got everything being traded. The drugs are regional. You're exactly right. You have to get your silphium from Libya, right?

These are geographical, um, items you know they're growing in these areas and you have to be able to access these well Rome is a magnet, so you can get anything in the Roman drug marketplace.

One of the things that we have seen with various indulgences over the years, sometimes alcohol, sometimes certain types of foods, is that certain classes of people would have access to something and indulge in something, whereas other classes maybe couldn't afford to do that. When we talk about ancient times, where we talk about the prevalence of drug use, Did that cut across socioeconomic levels? Was everybody on drugs from the emperor to the pauper? Or was it something that was reserved for the working class or the wealthy?

Yeah, that's a brilliant question. You can actually tell somebody's status by the drugs that they're using, right? With the kind of the majority of the population relying on these agricultural types of remedies.

But then at the very top of the scale with the people who've got the money, these people like Augustus. Um, Augustus was a huge, huge opium hog. Um, and he's got recipes. These, we've got recipes for his, um, different kind of concoctions that are clearly, clearly way beyond, um, just a, a, a nice health boost. You know, this isn't a shake that you drink in the field butter.

you know this is he's using psychotropic substances but he can because he has sent out all over the Roman sphere of influence he sent out people to find books, books that contain these compound formulae that are coming from the east, these are coming from the Black Sea region, and Marcus Aurelius / Galen the physician is probably the greatest physician that ever lived. Galen is Marcus Aurelius' personal body physician, and he's complaining in one of his treatises.... I was reading it and nobody translates these things, by the way, because classicists don't have the scientific expertise to do so. So they run from him, scared like little, little children.

But, um, Galen says of Marcus Aurelius, he says, "look, I'm tired of adjusting his medication, his dosage of his opium, up". So you see right there, he's dealing with, the people are dealing with the same issues. You were talking about heroin or whatnot. Yeah. Gorgeous.

And what are your sources for this? If people are wondering.

Yeah. Okay. So you've got the medical sources on one side, guys like Galen, Galen, I've got 22 volumes of Galen and great.

And it is literally Morse and Homer and Sophocles and Euripides and Aeschylus all combined together. So Galen is one huge source. Dioscorides, famous Roman, right? He's got a knowledge of drugs that he even introduces the audience to his street names. The street names they're using, for example, cannabis, they use the street name star.

• star (astarion) - ancient street name for cannabis

When you go and purchase, they have the name cannabis. It's a Greek name, cannabis. But they call it star in the street. It's called astarion. So when you use a starion, you enter into the Eremon, into the wilderness. Do you see how they're kind of functioning with the drugs? That's where they're going. So yeah.

Scribonius Largus. Oh, if you want to see what the emperors are getting stoned on, go to Scribonius Largus. He's somebody that nobody reads, Frank. Nobody reads these people. So when I did my dissertation and I did a whole chapter on recreational drug use, I was told by the head of the department, she said, look, the Romans just wouldn't do such a thing. And that's what I knew. Okay. Okay. For the sake of education.

For the sake of people gaining access to those sources, you need to stand aside and I need to find the underbelly. And Frank, I started digging and I found sex rites that would blow your mind and you'd be surprised if you found out who was doing them.

You mentioned Moses and the snake. Were there any other biblical references to drug use in biblical times?

Yeah, one of the coolest ones that people miss all the time is called the Fire of Ouranos. That's the cool name they came up with. Isn't that a nice name?

Oh yeah, I love it.

But it was developed it was developed by a Kolkian woman named Medea. She was a queen and she developed this substance that ultimately the Greek Navy turns into a weapon. It's like napalm. It's a clear fluid. And they use the vapors of this thing in processing drugs and whatnot. It's a petroleum product that's highly combustible and it can't be put out with water. It just has to get close to a flame and it'll burst and it'll activate, you know.

And this is one and you say, "Well, that's not really a drug." Oh, yeah. That's because you don't understand the polypharmacy of the ancient world, because this same woman who made this drug that all the texts tell us she was the one who created it, right? Um she also created a substance "of her own communion" that was called the The Purple and it's related to an arrow poison that they're using in the Black Sea. And this arrow poison is a neurotoxin which according to their own accounts will "turn you to stone".

And the Medusae, you've probably heard Medusa, the Medusae were temple guardians. Everybody thinks, "Oh, this is mythology. It's a story about a woman with snaky hair." No, no, no, no. It's an account of a group that were called guardians. And these people guarded temples. And what did they do? They put the snake venom in their hair. They would draw their bow through their hair.

Remember, these are Scythian, crazy Scythian women, who are part of a culture where you have to kill three men before you are allowed to mate. And when you're done mating, you can either kill the dude or you can force him to raise the offspring. That's the society we're dealing with. And they are steeped in drugs.

And these Medusae can put you down at a distance. All they got to do is nick you and "turn you to stone". These are and this the queen of these people the historical queen of these people is creating an empire, that is an empire of religion. And it is the first mystery that we have in the West.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam are all its descendants.

Uh, I know there's been a lot of talk in the New Testament about Jesus and the apostles eating. Uh, occasional talk of them drinking as well. Anything about Jesus and the apostles doing any sort of drugs as far as you can tell?

Yeah. Fantastic. So, um, we got to look at the alabastrum and we first get it with, um, with Mary. Remember Mary Magdalene? Mhm. She was pardoned later by Pope Gregory. I think it's Gregory I who says "we forgive her for being in possession of sex drugs". That alabastrum what they recognized is the alabastrum is the applicator for the sex drugs that they call in the New Testament passages, they call it the muron.

• muron - people think it's just myrrh but in medical texts it is a drug combo that is used on Cypress and is very valuable, induces a change in mental state. Nonnus is an expert on bacchic cult and writes about this. (from 17:55 here )

Um, people think muron is just myrrh and sometimes it's just translated as mhyrr, but in the medical text it is a combo that is used especially on Cyprus and it's supposed to be very very valuable. And so when Mary is applying via the alabaster to Jesus the drug that is inside of it. Um she's she's applying a drug directly that we know induces a change in mental state. And now what's crazy about this is people are going to say, "Okay, okay, that's a that's reading too much into it." No, no, no. Don't listen to me. listen to an ancient author named Nonas. And Nonas wrote a paraphrase or a re rewriting of the Gospel of John. And Nonas happens to be an expert in cult, particularly Bocket Cult. And Nonas says that when Mary applied the medical applicator, the rectal medical applicator to Jesus, that his fluid was what was taken out of her gorgeous hair. It calls her hair gorgeous in the way that you would call a temple pro what you would call a temple prostitute's hair gorgeous. Right.

Dr. Dr. Hillman, let me ask what people may ask the question, why should folks care about this? Now, if the ancient Greeks, the ancient Romans, and people in biblical times were all high, what difference does that make to our lives today or our understanding of the scholarly works or any other works that they gave us thousands of years ago?

Yeah, it's good question, Frank.

And the that's why I tell everybody to shock them into that reality. I say, Frank, did you know that Jesus was arrested in a public park with a naked boy at 4:00 a.m.?

What? Um, no, I did not know that. Where where is that in the New Testament?

It it is in Mark the Gospel of Mark 14 51 and 52. And nobody ever reads it, Frank. Nobody ever reads it. If you could pull that up right now and read it, you'd shock yourself because you'd never seen this naked kid with Jesus when he's arrested. And then wait, the Greek is going to help us here. What happens when the when the people get there to arrest Jesus? He raises his hands and he says, "I am not a Lestes." And what is a Lestes in Greek? It's a child trafficker. Did you realize that Jesus's apostles are all teenage boys?

I absolutely did not realize that.

Uh Dr. Hillman, we're going to actually have to end it there, but hopefully we can chat again. and I appreciate a very thoughtprovoking conversation.

Yeah, good stuff. Frank, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you, Dr. Hillman. You want to comment on any portion of our conversation? That was wild. I'm now reading Mark 14:51. It does say it does say that. Looks like Judas gave him a hard time in that section of the Gospels as well. That is interesting.